» Why reproductive rights indeed

30 December 2005 - 9:06am

Why reproductive rights indeed

media girl's picture

On Our Word, artemisia has written a wonderfully concise primer on why a woman has a right to abortion -- it gets down to fundamental human rights.

At the cornerstone of western philosophy, morality, and jurisprudence is the concept of individual sovereignty. It is the notion that free individuals have the fundamental right to self determination, the right to go about their lives and choose their courses of action without interference.

Because all individuals are imbued with that fundamental right, it is a fundamental principle that your right to to swing your arms ends at the tip of my nose. In other words, you are free to do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't hurt others.

Those who are against a woman's right to choose recognize this. They argue that once conception occurs a sovereign individual has been created that has its own right to existence. Unfortunately, they stop there. The anti-choice position is that a woman's right to do what she wants with her own body ends at the moment her action causes harm to the sovereign individual in her uterus. Thus, not only does a woman not have a right to terminate her pregnancy, but she also doesn't have the right to engage in any behavior that could harm the sovereign individual inside her. Hence you see supporters of this position also urging incarceration of pregnant women who drink or use drugs.

However, this notion that a sovereign individual is created at conception is fundamentally flawed. Even conceding, for the sake of argument, that human life begins at conception, it does not follow that this new life is imbued with a fundamental sovereignty, a right to life, at that moment. Indeed, very basic precepts of western philosophy, morality, and jurisprudence indicate that this fundamental right to life does not begin a conception.

Inherent to individual sovereignty is the recognition that an individual has domain over their own body. A corrollary to the principle that "your right to swing your arms ends at the tip of my nose" is the concept of consent. Your arms can only have contact with the tip of my nose if I give my consent. An individual is not required to give up any part of their body without consent. Thus, your right to life ends at the moment you require the use of my kidney to live. I may choose to donate my kidney, or the temporary use of it, to you but the law cannot require me to do so. No individual has a greater right to my own body than me. At the moment you have a greater right over my body than I do, I am enslaved.

There's more.

Also recommended are her two long comments in this thread where a couple of seemingly Dobsonites have set up soap boxes. One snippet:

frankly, i'm not interested in arguing the science of when life begins or what constitutes a human being. to me, it is irrelevant to the issue of whether a woman has a right to keep her own biology to herself. providing her biology to carry a pregnancy to term is a wonderous gift that a woman gives to an emerging life. but it is a gift that must be made voluntarily. if she does not have the right to choose whether or not to give her biology, then she is reduced to the status of breeding stock. we don't grant cows the right to decide whether they will get pregnant or give milk or die in order to feed a human being. but as human beings, we have the right to decide with whom we share our biology and when.

And responding to one man's assertion that an acorn = an oak tree and a fertilized ovum = a human being:

yes, scientifically an acorn is of the species oak. but there is a reason science and language give names to different stages of development. there is a reason we have the terms acorn, sapling, oak tree. each describes a different mode of existence. an acorn doesn't perform photosynthesis. so while acorn and oak tree may both be of the species "oak", it does not follow that acorn = oak tree.

likewise, a blastocyst and a 5 day old baby may both be of the species "human". but that does not mean that blastocyst = baby. there is no such thing as an "unborn baby." a blastocyst, zygote, embryo, or fetus cannot survive without the biology of a host. a baby can.

And this point-by-point response is worth reading in whole.

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Jivin J's picture
Jivin J says:

Hi Mediagirl,

When did I say that an acorn = an oak tree? I said that an acorn isn't an oak tree but it is an oak. Artemisia agrees with what I said about an acorn being the same species as an oak. Your intellectual dishonesty is obvious and quite saddening.

But then again, I'm just a fundie wacko who likes to impose his religious beliefs on others by providing quotes from embryology textbooks.


(30 December 2005 - 12:43pm)
bayprairie's picture

i just cut down my neighbor's oak

by stepping on her acorn!!!!

now i'm off to have some delicous chicken,

by cracking open some eggs!!!


(30 December 2005 - 12:58pm)
media girl's picture

Okay, so you say an acorn is an oak. It's still wrong.

Your last statement at least is mostly true, imho, though you do a lot more than quoting texts you don't understand and refuse to explain or define terms for.

I'd ask you for proof that I'm being dishonest, but you're not very good at proving anything else so far.


(30 December 2005 - 1:34pm)
Jivin J's picture
Jivin J says:

If it's still wrong then why did you post the response from Artemesia saying that an acorn is a species of oak? That's the same thing as I said. She was agreeing with my statement regarding whether an acorn is a species of oak.

I defined terms in our last discussion - the only thing I received was a snide response. How don't I understand the texts I quoted? You're the one that says quotes from embryology textbooks aren't evidence?

Proof? You claimed that I said "an acorn = an oak tree" - when did I say that? This is what I said "an acorn is an oak. It's not yet an oak tree but it is an oak. In the same way, an oak seedling is an oak but it's not an oak tree. In the same way, an oak sapling isn't yet a 30 foot oak tree yet it's still an oak. That's it's genus and species - just like the genus and species of a unborn human being is homo sapiens."

So I said that an "acorn isn't yet an oak tree" and you turn that into "an acorn = an oak tree." This seems to be your basic strawman strategy when arguing with someone - take their argument, expose it to radiation so it transforms into a statement that they never said (or even said the complete opposite of) and then attack the argument you've created for them instead of actually attack their actual argument.

I find it amazing how quickly quoting embryology textbooks turns me into a fundamentalist whacko and Dobson lover in this pro-choice crowd. I guess if you don't like the evidence from science textbooks all you have to do is attack the integrity of the person who quotes them and then you can ignore science.


(3 January 2006 - 7:42am)
Madman in the Marketplace's picture

did I hurt your feelings?

So sorry, but you deserve nothing more than scorn. You've memorized a lazy and fallacious argument for an ideology that considers pre-sentient bundles of cells as being more important than a living woman.

You can wrap your "reasonableness" around yourself like a warm coat, and pretend that you're not being intellectually dishonest and misogynistic, but it doesn't change the fact that those things are exactly what you are. You are a cultist. You worship the pre-baby, some weird elevated totem for holy "life". You are little different from a Moonie or a Branch Davidian or a member of the Family (I'm sure you and your friends are quick to belittle other cults, claiming they're not "real" religions) ... it's just that your cult is bigger and owns more politicians.

If you can't see that claiming that a fetus = human being is the same as saying acorn = oak, then you really should go to your nearest university and take Logic 101.

Don't you have a weeping Mary statue or something to go worship? Maybe a Golden Calf? Oh, wait, that was a different cult.


(30 December 2005 - 2:18pm)
Jennaphyr's picture
Jennaphyr says:

Seriously, he's a self-righteous troll that pops up in anything that has to do with abortion, waving his holier-than-thou ideology in other people's faces. I read several blogs and he seems to be quite active commenting on the subject.

He's neither intelligent enough or interesting enough to keep feeding. Just ignore him...


(31 December 2005 - 2:09am)

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