Collective statement: feminist bloggers say no to John G. Roberts

Comments

30 comments posted
very nice. You realize, of

very nice.

You realize, of course, that without a legal name and address the signatures are

worthless and pointless

CaptDMO's picture
Posted by CaptDMO (not verified) on 20 September 2005 - 7:46pm
one more comment

in all those things.. the ladies still have the right to properly use contraceptives... if they use TWO different forms, then abortion becomes a small issue... however, abortion AND birth control appeared on the stage around the same time (politically speaking), and 40 MILLION dead fetuses later... the oh so responsible ladies still cant seem to maintain control over those same bodies. yes reproduction does have profound effects on EVERYONE, including people not even in the family.. women, as equals, should have no special status in this, ESPECIALLY when there are BETTER alternatives. the majority of abortions are not for rape, and not for many things they claim, it turns out to be a more convenient form of birth control.

ALSO, given that a woman can walk into any police station or hospital, drop the child off, and walk (denying paternal rights as well), thereby not having to partake in the many reasons that ladies say abortion is necessary!

many reasons for roe v wade no longer exist.. the bottom line is that since this isnt an advocacy judge you can neither throw him out on his siding, nor can side with him yourself.

women have killed more children than any male despote that has ever lived...

and you know the worst part...

if the past 30 years had been a time of responsible practice in planning, birth control, etc.. i would be on the side of abortion, but alas, women are NOT that responsible... there is no way to make the argument that they are when abortion is a MAJOR form of birth control, and many women do it repeatedly (i know a woman that last i knew her had more than 6 abortions! why? was it just so she can firm up and exercise her right?)

if you ladies policed your own, then abortion would be more permissable, you didnt, and now its not, and so its an issue your scared of losing.

(not to mention all the other shit you tied to this one point that hinged on your ACTUAL acting responsible)

thank you for my minute - it would be appreciated if you didnt also act like totalitarians (compounding your ills), and allow an opinion that doesnt match yours to remain up.

anonymous lurker's picture
Posted by anonymous lurker (not verified) on 26 September 2005 - 6:03pm
Myths and urban legends
the ladies still have the right to properly use contraceptives

No, actually not in many states and counties. And the conservatives are working to make birth control impossible to obtain. Maybe you should read up on what your politicians are doing in your name.

abortion AND birth control appeared on the stage around the same time (politically speaking)

Yes, before birth control, women aborted when necessary, but it was incredibly dangerous. But after the Supreme Court established a woman's rights over her own body, suddenly there was an outcry against abortion. Why? Because women now had birth control, and the conservatives wanted woment to be punished for having sex. Thus the big "abortion battle."

By the way, before Roe, abortion rates were not lower in states where abortion was illegal. So there goes the idea that making women into criminals actually affects women's decisions when it comes to their own bodies.

it turns out to be a more convenient form of birth control.

Where do you get this idea? Are you a man? Maybe you should stick some kitchen utensils up your ass and decide how "convenient" it is.

women have killed more children than any male despote [sic] that has ever lived...

Where on Earth do you get this? Meanwhile, every person born was born to a woman. A woman gave birth. A woman went through labor. A woman gave months of her life, gave of her blood, gave of her body to make that happen.

if the past 30 years had been a time of responsible practice in planning, birth control, etc.. i would be on the side of abortion, but alas, women are NOT that responsible...

If conservative men -- and it's mostly men -- did not repeatedly and persistently block sex education that includes birth control, work to ban access to birth control by all women, block approval of Plan B contraception, maybe your thesis would make sense. But unfortunately this has not been a time of "responsible practice in planning" because conservatives keep blocking and destroying the programs.

if you ladies policed your own, then abortion would be more permissable, you didnt, and now its not, and so its an issue your scared of losing.

You know, you're right. What we should do is push for chemical castration of all men, unless they're married and swear to the government that they will support any and all offspring that result from their ejaculations.

Then women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies, and we all could enjoy a vast reduction of aborted pregnancies in this country. After all, if men were responsible for where they spurted their seed, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 26 September 2005 - 6:48pm
a reply to a honest post (at least till the end)

“No, actually not in many states and counties. And the conservatives are working to make birth control impossible to obtain. Maybe you should read up on what your politicians are doing in your name.�

So when I mention that the irresponsibility of the past 30 years is causing people to withdraw their support, you try to refute on that point by pointing out that that’s whats happening?

Perhaps the problem is a combination of irresponsibility combined with a rampant promiscuity promoted by feminists? People used to own machine guns, you could buy them in the store. Most used them responsibly (and of those that own them LEGALLY today, not one has ever been stolen or used in a crime), however the few that didn’t reeked havoc on the population.

If irresponsible use of birth control leads to 40 million abortions, and lack of not fucking around, maybe when there is no birth control, like there was before, women might actually be scared of the outcome and stop being irresponsible. (it totally sucks, dont it? i am only stating the obvious, i dont make policy)

Women have currently more than 20 forms of birth control to select from. many forms require NO prescription and if not available can be ordered from another country. I cant see them getting rid of latex condoms soon (and the ladies have lady condoms, they squeek, but they work! how many have you used? or do you try to force other people to comply to you?). Nor can they get rid of birth control pills given that they are used for a lot more than birth control.

What my politicians are doing now has no bearing on the point of irresponsibility of the past 30 years and the 40 million dead. it will have bearing on the future though.

What your not getting, nor rather, what you don’t want to get, is that you and your sisters had 40 years (the first 10 a gimme), to show your stuff. You did not want to limit your sisters in ANY way, and this is the outcome.

Did you really think that the flower children and such wouldn’t grow up to be like there parents, yet have numbers to reverse every bad choice they made? Now they are reviewing their lives and will try to fix the future (god help all of us). The actions of women are what made the case, not men, not conspiracy, not the patriarchy… they could have easily made the opposite case and had a non issue here!

you got to run the experiment, and you let it go wild. Do you think the world will sit there and say, what the hell, lets give them another 40 years and another 40 million babies?

FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU

FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON ME…

“Yes, before birth control, women aborted when necessary, but it was incredibly dangerous. But after the Supreme Court established a woman's rights over her own body, suddenly there was an outcry against abortion. Why? Because women now had birth control, and the conservatives wanted woment to be punished for having sex. Thus the big "abortion battle."

WOW, that seems so trite… maybe because you women plot and such, you cant help but think like a paranoid… they wanted to “punish� women for having sex? That’s fucking ridiculous. Ever thought that they may believe in sanctity of life more than you do? Not that I am saying you don’t respect life, though you do draw the line as to the rights of your own offspring when it impinges on your total ability to act out in any way you want sans repercussions. (later i list out the three major reasons for abortion, and THE major reason is lifestyle preservation after accidental action born of irresponsible relations)

Perhaps the conservatives didn’t want to foot the bill for all you women’s bullshit. Perhaps they were democratic republicans and not Marxists like you (and if you don’t think you’re a Marxist, you have a lot of reading to do, and a lot of questioning of what your following).

I am not a conservative, but I don’t want to foot the bill for other peoples irresponsibility. That includes all the violent kids that single mothers have (well documented as the majority source), the crime, the sexually transmitted deseases from those honey pots, and your birth control, and all the other shit that you think you should get that no one gets… (tapping the engine that makes all your life possible and all our time able to discuss this is another dumb thing. socialism doesnt work. taxing the rich to fund the poor removes the wealthy source, and removes the desire of the poor to work harder. we all become poor under that ideology. change the rules, you change the game, and everyone chooses new strategy! which is why when you ladies change things it dont work out so well, you rely on only the change being limited to the change and think that you can then scoop up the benifit. think of what happens next in your little march.. its not a nice ending, and its happened several times before, and size of the nation is no protection!)

if the ladies pitched together (especially the rich widowers), you could fund all this shit yourself out of your own pockets and no one will have a damn thing to say! (but ladies always want OPM! mens money, government money, wealthy money, everything but their own)

Your punishment angle is the kind of simplistic argument that only a child loves (and i am not calling yuo a child).

you do not want to look at the other side your opposed to as people like you with a valid opinion to work out. they are just evil people out to stop or punish you for spreading your legs (like terrorists in iraq really want to destroy democracy and have no valid beefs).

This nuttiness could be why things stopped going your way, and are slowing down and reversing (faludi warned you!). You girls had such a good start, and then you let the rad nut jobs in. suffrage – great work… equality of purpose – good job! equality of outcome - whoops, nutty marxist shit...

Then the nuts took over and used all that good work to push crazy shit… no wonder that this is an issue!!!!!!!!!

“By the way, before Roe, abortion rates were not lower in states where abortion was illegal. So there goes the idea that making women into criminals actually affects women's decisions when it comes to their own bodies.�

The reason the rates were not that different was because the number of women fucking people indiscriminately was not like after the 60’s. there were less pregancies and births too. women were more afraid of dying either way!

screw more, have more accidents, have to have more fix it jobs. Why be promiscuous? Because a lesbian master (how hetero women can think that a minorty represents them more than their own makes no sense. your outcomes are not the same! they are undermining the desires of lots of hetero women, and alienating your mass appeal!) says its liberating, while most women end up harmed by the behavior. It undermines their future from inside! its not good... it does not have the same effect on men. for whatever reason it doesnt, and thats the way it is. your perfect mate is not another woman, a narcisists perfect mate is another woman. the lesbians have sown such disharmony that even under the best of circumstances the rest of the ladies cant succeed! (but thats a diatribe for another day!)

Where do you get this idea? Are you a man? Maybe you should stick some kitchen utensils up your ass and decide how "convenient" it is.

my gender, or sex is irrelevent.. unless you want to throw away what i have to say out of hand. so lets leave the gender nasties out, we have had a pretty good talk so far.. maybe i am transgendered and have lived BOTH sides and know more.. though, its also irrelevent. the personal does not outweigh reality (though the feminists think so because its easier to sell!)

I am not the one using it as a convenience. In fact I totally agree with you on this one (not the tool up my ass part). No matter what you say as to how uncomfortable, painful, nasty, and psychologically damaging it is (wondering why your fighting for it then), many many women use this as a major form of birth control. I know many women that have had multiple abortions… I guess they didn’t learn from the first one, or they don’t find it as inconvenient as you or I would!!!!!!!!! Personally I think that poping a pill and having an IUD is a better choice…but that’s not what women did, or are doing.

So its not a matter of dreaming, it’s a matter of what actually happened and is happening.

You only have to look at the numbers to get an idea… you girls are so good at drawing whatever you want from numbers… please draw me how these current figures represent responsibility.

49% of pregnancies among American women are unintended

1/2 of these are terminated by abortion

24% of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion

From 1973 through 2002, more than 42 million legal abortions occurred

Each year, 2 out of every 100 women aged 15-44 have an abortion

And drumroll please

48% of them have had at least one previous abortion

For an inconvenient thing… a lot of them go back!!!

I wouldnt, but obviously they are!!

52% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25

Women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all abortions,

and teenagers obtain 19%

2/3 of all abortions are among never-married women

[oh yeah… marriage, you don’t like that either! not u personally, the collective feminst you]

On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion:

3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities;

Its inconvenient enough to have “kitchen utensils and someone poking them in your body�, though not as inconvenient as the interference of work, school or other. in fact, work, school, and such don’t pop up suddenly from no where… so why the irresponsibility that covers 30 million of the 40 million dead?

about 2/3 say they cannot afford a child;

if you cant afford one, then why aren’t you taking the free birth control. Oh and it is free, just walk into any planned parenthood and there is a jar of rubbers on the counter, and lots of money for it.. and if there isn’t enough, then again, NOW can take some of that billion dollars they get and provide it. make a show of solidarity and fund it yourself.

and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

If you note the overlap these women are having multiple problems AND compounding them.

women have killed more children than any male despote [sic] that has ever lived...

Where on Earth do you get this? Meanwhile, every person born was born to a woman. A woman gave birth. A woman went through labor. A woman gave months of her life, gave of her blood, gave of her body to make that happen.

I "get this" by just listing out the numbers.. and my numbers on abortion are only ONE country!! hitler 12-15 million, mao, stalin, cant hold a candle to the collective women. though i have to admit that the women had less malice in their hearts when they did it, though i fail to see how this makes it better.

Your answer to this is that since women create everyone (and not by herself, so EVERY person born is also born to man through woman!), that means they have the right to terminate that which they create. And terminate it unilaterally denying their own partners right in this? I know your answer is YES. So we don’t have to guess that… though how can you have great relationships and great grounds for raising children if you think of your partner and such in such ways before you even meet them? Your definition of love is not healthy if you can do this to another person, and write their desires off out of hand, and make that decision before you even meet them.

You are here because it takes TWO to raise a family (until very recently).. That over heavy, waddling woman would be animal food without him, and very very good food too! She would never be able to get enough protein to have a healthy child on her own…

You conveniently leave out the last 100,000 years of help you get, so you can say in the last 100 years that you need not that partner… and this gives you the right to kill… no one here is questioning responsible abortion… its just that there are too many for them to be responsible… if you don’t like that conclusion, then maybe using math to make spurious salary claims wasn’t a good idea either.

If conservative men -- and it's mostly men -- did not repeatedly and persistently block sex education that includes birth control, work to ban access to birth control by all women, block approval of Plan B contraception, maybe your thesis would make sense. But unfortunately this has not been a time of "responsible practice in planning" because conservatives keep blocking and destroying the programs.

Give me a break.. (schafly is not a man nor are many others on that side of the fence!) Your point only works on teenagers… and people with no electricity.. you have a television I presume and a radio… how bout a telephone book? How much secret information gets out everyday? The only way it could effectively be blocked is if your in a box… even the argument in the newspaper of its blocking unblocks it (or didnt you notice all the children havnig blow jobs after monica saved a stain?) or if the feminists get PC speech going more and no one can talk about anything for fear of legal reprisals.

And part of "responsible practice in planning" would also include ALL forms of control, including abstinence.

Your argument might make sense if we weren’t living in a modern state with telephones, no checkpoints, and no limits on peaceful meeting and such.

Conservatives AND Feminists have been destroying the programs. They both don’t want the whole picture told. The conservatives don’t want lesbianism taught as a sexual choice, and feminists don’t want all the health issues and shit that may undermine other points to be taught (things like down syndrome, onset of perimenopause, desease vectors, etc).

So on this, your both wrong!

Teach it all or don’t teach it….

if you ladies policed your own, then abortion would be more permissable, you didnt, and now its not, and so its an issue your scared of losing.

You know, you're right. What we should do is push for chemical castration of all men, unless they're married and swear to the government that they will support any and all offspring that result from their ejaculations.

Then women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies, and we all could enjoy a vast reduction of aborted pregnancies in this country. After all, if men were responsible for where they spurted their seed, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

[part of policing is not jack boots. personally being there and such, giving ALL information, not guiding them to choices you want them to make over their own desires, etc.. thats what i meant by policing. and i called on women to do it so you cant say its the jack booted men that are imposing this on us to punish (for thats in your mindset).]

If you study biology (not advocate), then you will know that women make the first move. That women control access to their bodies (or are you claiming that most pregnancies are not voluntary accidents after sexual coitus?).

Asking the ladies to police the ladies is not the same as what you responded to which was to have government police the men because ladies are too weak (unlike you i dont think that they are, and i think that feminists both set them up and knock them down with this two punch. its mean, its not right, and makes schizo people that dont make good choices FOR THEMSELVES).

Its contradictory. Either you have the strength and wearwithal to make your own choices and be responsible of the outcome regardless of other people, or you admit, OR your too weak.. which is it? (knowing the people i do i cant see the latter as being right, and so honor, decorum, and such is to stand tall and accept responsibility for youselves and the outcomes of the interactions YOU choose to have. others should not pay for your bad judgements any more than I would want someone to pay for mine. if its my mess i clean it. i dont try to get everyone else involved. but hey, thats old fashioned self actaulized responsibility, not new fangled, blame oriented, fear mongering redirected responsibility.

Your seed comment is so cute in that your arguing FOR womens responsibility and now are foisting that on men so you can continue to be irresponsible, as if abortion is the ONLY problem with such behavior. (desease, mental, shit - it makes bad men! while the reverse makes better men. you have power in the world, the feminists have been lying!!! you can effect change, especially in your life, your choices and such. however, we are all prisoners of our choices, and lack of information and lies and stuff on the feminists side, no matter how appealing to swallow, hurts you all in the long run!)

Men are not running around spouting their seed everywhere like fountains, and women are not walking on their hands using their vaginas like catch basins.. though you do paint an interesting picture (Dali would have loved it).

Here is an amazing thing. close your legs, and you find out all manner of things about your ‘mate’. And you can make better choices… maybe its not as fun up front, but it is your choice on how to proceed. each behavior has its own codons of result, and its not responsible to think that it would all work if only the other side would do what you tell them to.

This last part saddens me, because its exactly this trailoff that will kill abortion!!!

You are the gate keepers… whether you like it or not…

You have the burden… whether you like it or not (though you have lots of choices in this)…

You have the responsibility… whether you like it or not… (and more so in the face of your belief that men are naturally more irresponsible and so god damn attractive that you just melt! and they can spew sperm - how lovely - no wonder you ladies hate what you are, you hve contempt for everything and cant see it!)

The main point here, is that abortion is something YOU want to have and be able to choose. The price of that PRIVELEDGE (not right), is a general level of responsibility. If abortion was a real right, you would not be so scared that it would go. Your right to terminate your child at will does not come from a higher power. it comes from technology and ideology… all the other rights come naturally and need no assistance from such extra accouterments. A right that comes from beyond government need not government to know it exists, and needs not technology to make possible, and needs not ideology to maintain it.

Personally, I would be upset to see ALL abortions go. However, just as you cant have all machine guns, you cant have all abortions. Some restrictions are in order at minimum, and some freedoms shouldn’t have been curtailed. It’s a states issue, and the federal government is overstepping their bounds…

however, you ladies are the ones that invited that big hairy elephant into the room, and told it to push the states around. (well it liked pushing them around on other things, and so you helping make it more powerful was real dumb! government was never yours to control and is no ones long term freind! men know this, which is why we limited it seriously, and you ladies took the tops off).

the feds didn’t have the right to make law in this till you ladies expanded what government is allowed to do, past its charter!!! Advocacy is forbidden, but taboos be damned and we have advocacy, and you didn’t realize that once you let the sickness into the room, everything is deseased. Did you think that advocacy can and will only go one way… imagine if you didn’t do that… this would not be an issue. states rights would have been sovereign and a bus trip would have been an easy compromise. (like cloning, eventually it would have been allowed and be more sane. rushing it and pressing it made more of a mess, and now look.. the pendulum swings.. you shoouldnt have pushed the swing so hard and so far so fast. the result is plain old plain!)

Sometimes when we want it all, we end up with nothing..

anonymous lurker's picture
Posted by anonymous lurker (not verified) on 27 September 2005 - 11:45am
Your epic rant proves my point

You want to punish women. You blame women for unwanted pregnancies, but refuse to take any responsibility yourself. You know, women don't get pregnant alone.

You blame the failure of birth control for preventing unwanted pregnancies, when in fact the conservative agenda has been to make birth control unavailable. And those condoms you love so much? In case you haven't noticed, men wear the condoms -- or at least they're supposed to. The women don't wear the condoms. So if condoms aren't being used, again, it's the men who are responsible, no?

The fact is that there's no constitutional basis for the government to reach into a woman's body and claim sovereignty. But as you point out, men want to control women's reproduction, and so all of this is justified because, in your eyes, women just don't deserve liberty and equal protection under the law.

Your misogynistic attitudes are vivid. And your delusions about the state of the law and society are revealing. Sex education from a phone book? What are you on, anyway?

Why should men be free to fuck all they want, but women must lose civil rights and human rights because they have sex? Who says that you decide? Who are you to decide about others?

Thanks but no thanks. If you don't want to abort a pregnancy, then don't. Otherwise it's none of your fucking business.

Oh, and this is the first I heard that women were controlling the government. Wow! Someone oughta tell all the men who think they're in charge. They might get the idea that they're really running things.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 27 September 2005 - 1:24pm
Your epic rant proves my

Your epic rant proves my point

The size of the response is dependent on the amount of information necessary to convey a cogent answer. Just as you cant measure music by counting and saying there are “too many notes�, calling my cogent post a rant because its long is just not true, and is a blame game having nothing to do with the post inside. It also allows you to discredit my post in the title of your post, again with not even a specious argument.

You want to punish women. You blame women for unwanted pregnancies, but refuse to take any responsibility yourself. You know, women don't get pregnant alone.

I don’t want to punish women, they are doing just fine hurting themselves and it pains me to see it.

Its not me who doesn’t want to take responsibility. I am not the one with all the choices! Your “choices� consist of:

Not having sex till your in a committed relationship (some of these women have 5 kids with 5 different men – I am sure not the one punishing them!).

When having sex, to insure against the evil male, use contraceptives

If you don’t take it the night of, you have extra meds for the morning after

If you miss that (and with good reason here in the US!), then you have several months of time to abort.

If you miss that you then can unilaterally leave the child off at a police station, fire department, church or hospital with NO questions, AND you get to deal your partner out AND avoid your contribution to child support.

Then you can always peg another man that has more money than the father by paternity fraud.

Failing that you can then go after the real dad (notice how this option is 7th down the list chronologically).

If that fails, you can actually arrange support from more than one man for the same child! Just marry a guy and divorce.

Note that CS is tax free… you get aid to dependend children, can claim them, collect from more than one parent. And there is MORE!

The man has two options…

Don’t have sex with you

Have sex and let the wacky train ride go wherever it takes you.

You blame the failure of birth control for preventing unwanted pregnancies, when in fact the conservative agenda has been to make birth control unavailable.

I don’t blame birth control, and you are blaming faulty meds. The numbers I posted are way off from the efficacy of the medication. Birth control (specifically the pill) has a 99% plus rate of control. Couple this with less than a 25% rate of pregnancy without it, AND add a IUD, and you pretty much will hit the lottery first rather than conceive.

You are making assumptions that the reason that all these women conceive is “the FAILURE of birth control�. I guess if a person cant be relied upon to maintain the level or progesterone by taking a pill, then yes the meds fail… however, for such a person there is norplant, the patch, and other methods like IUD.

The more options one has the more responsibility one has. Having all the options makes you the driver. Blaming the passenger for not stopping the car wreck when the passenger has no means of controlling the driver is wrong. There is more than one forum dedicated to women that love to get pregnant and I have read threads where they trade tips on how to get pregnant against the mens wishes. They are thereby denying the men the control in that situation that your demanding. This is not to claim, like you, that all are this situation, however, the man is culpable no matter what you the lady put him through!!!!

Ask my brother… (I am his sister)… his ex set him up to look like her murdered her… falsefyed testimony.. and he was forced to walk away as she took him to another state. later she ended up taking his son with her when she robbed a bank and served 1.5 years. At no time did my brother, who held steady work, apartments, and a spare room never used, had any say in anything.

And you ladies want more!

You do a disservice to all the responsible women out there. and there are many of them. Free everything with no responsibility for the outcome just creates a situaiont that is bad for everyone. Your contributing to it by thinking that 40 million abortions all are due to failed birth control not a good point.

Not to mention that at no time did I ever resort to the ad hominem that both posters (both female) had to add. I thought men were the violent nasty ones.

And those condoms you love so much? In case you haven't noticed, men wear the condoms -- or at least they're supposed to. The women don't wear the condoms. So if condoms aren't being used, again, it's the men who are responsible, no?

There is the female condom! Or don’t you know whats available to you?

http://images.google.com/images?q=female+condom&hl...

is a link to all kinds of images of this contraption… why don’t women wear it?

as you say it’s a two edged sword, but shifting responsibility to the person with only two or three options while denying the twenty options at their disposal is a bad point to argue from.

you are blinded to any and all fairness when it comes to relations between men and women. the man you meet today wasn’t responsible for the hurt women received yesterday, any more than a white person whos family immigrated here during the 40s has anything to do with American slavery.

You make grand assumptions as to my next thought after I said that women should be more responsible. Unlike you I never said that men shouldn’t pay, and such. However, there should also be equity in that as well, and there isn’t. its not possible to split a home into two and maintain it (unless the man is wealthy).

And I don’t see you ladies helping the single men who have custody get the CS they are supposed to get, when more than 40% of women are deadbeat (while less than 10% of men are).

The fact is that there's no constitutional basis for the government to reach into a woman's body and claim sovereignty.

I agree… and there is no constutional basis and in fact a stated basis that a man (or woman) shouldn’t be a indentured slave either. Which is what he becomes when he has no options. You have the option of giving up the child and contact and having not to pay, why doesn’t he have that option? Oh, yeah, for him exercising his rights may limit how far you can exercise yours, and we all know that womens rights trumps mens, and childrens rights! This in a country were all of us are supposed to be equal. If that’s your definition of equal then somethings very wrong with your dictionary.

When a woman holds back and gets a committed relationship from the man (ie marriage first), then she has all the concommittent rights for them to work out the situation. When not in marriage, then she should protect herself, her child to be, her family, the society, the man, and all else by insuring that she doesn’t become a victim of her poor judgment AND the entitlements that you and your ladies are telling her she has, but are absent her tribulations when it happens.

Don’t argue that you are weak. Your are not. the sisters are not. worming around that all this is mens fault, then trying to claim their half (against patent negligence), is whats undermining your cause.

No one here is invalidation your cause… just invalidation how you are all going about securing it and maintaining it.

But as you point out, men want to control women's reproduction, and so all of this is justified because, in your eyes, women just don't deserve liberty and equal protection under the law.

I said that women should police their own so that you cant make that spurious claim. See how clever, I know the game your playing cause its scripted (sad eh). Women deserve equal protection under the law AND SO DO MEN. right now, men aren’t getting it. do you hate your own potential boy child so much? What did he do? Oh yeah, he is male, and that’s a crime. And that’s your idea of equal protection.

The equality argument is a fallacious argument. Entitlements cant make things equal. Only letting both men and women have their advantages and disadvantages makes them equal. You forget that in order to have the TYPE of equality your advocating you need an arbiter. And right now the arbiter is changing! Cant last forever, everything changes. The other type of equal needs no arbiter, expends no energy, and IS ultimately fair.

The mistake was that someone sold you all a bill of goods that what men do is more important than what women do! Its like watching coke and pepsi argue… and realizing that as long as they use each other as a measyure, they can never exceed the other. women have not shown superior ability, compassion, and all those qualities we talk about like we have them. If we do, I don’t see them. All I see is control freaks imposing more and more control for no matter what they get it isn’t enough.

Your misogynistic attitudes are vivid. And your delusions about the state of the law and society are revealing. Sex education from a phone book? What are you on, anyway?

You dip, I didn’t say read the phone book names and addresses and know about sex. What I mean is that you can dial any number of shelters, hospitals, counselors, planned parenthood, or even any medical professional (like doctor, nurse, etc). are you telling me that these people don’t exist in your telephone book and that a woman is so helpless that she cant figure out those are the people to call (and from a pay phone if the confident and self sufficient person is scared).

Obviously, maybe that is your point, since you didn’t get it!

Why should men be free to fuck all they want, but women must lose civil rights and human rights because they have sex?

If the ladies weren’t screwing then who would the men screw? I am sorry but it takes a promiscuous woman and culture to make that free for all happen! All I am saying is that she has more choices than you are giving her (I don’t need your advice, I am not stupid this way). No one says you cant have all the sex you want! Just that if you plan to, then exercise your options to insure that the outcome is what you want in it. if you want to be in the drivers seat then you have to be the driver that turns the wheel and you are responsible for all the passengers. Take away the mens rights and they are your responsibility, just like you were theirs back when (take a look a hamurabi’s code! has lots of special protections and such for women! so even from the first code you had options in a time when you say you had none!!!)

Who says that you decide? Who are you to decide about others?

I am not deciding. Anymore than if you drop a rock it decided to fall. There are natural consequences to actions and behaviors and there are commensurate risks. Being a whole and independent person is to accept all that and the responsibility for all that. More choices mean more responsibility.

If you don’t want that responsibility then choose something else. There is no denial of rights here, just recognition of all our responsibilities to each other, and the concurrent responsibility that sometimes we all aren’t what we pose to be! Women OR Men.

At no time did I say make a law that says you cant fuck to your hearts content. At the same time though there should be no law protecting you from the outcome of your own choices and behavior either. That’s REAL freedom… the freedom to soar, the freedom to fail (this is the part us ladies are too afraid of and are trying to use law to keep us from having to learn and make better decisions).

Thanks but no thanks. If you don't want to abort a pregnancy, then don't. Otherwise it's none of your fucking business.

I agree. However, it doesn’t just hang there, for as you said in the beginning it takes two. And so it’s the responsibility of the two to come to agreement. She may have to carry what she doesn’t want to, just as he may have to work for someone he doesn’t want to. Anything else is not equality, but some sick affirmative advocated twist with the label equality.

Oh, and this is the first I heard that women were controlling the government. Wow! Someone oughta tell all the men who think they're in charge. They might get the idea that they're really running things.

Yeah, well. women have run things a lot from behind the walls. Not only in the current sphere but in others as well (you might like that biatch that ruled rome through several male emperors!)

In fact you will and I will see how much control we had when we lose some of it. the men are not sleeping any more. The valid points have made way to nuttiness (you might not think so, but there are many that do, and THAT makes a difference). Things have gotten far enough that they are entering the game. prior to 10 years ago were there any mens orgs that meant something? Where there famous people using their wealth (like women did)? the men would have put up and did put up with a lot. Faludi warned that to go too far was to risk a swing back the other way. And the problem with pendulums is that if you swing hard, they return hard… there is no stop at the bottom to level it. only a diminishing response will slow it down and let it find center.

And here is the scary part, if you do the math… we aren’t having kids. Every feminist country is dropping children like they were hotplates on bare hands. The most onerous regimes are having kids like crazy… the US is propping their population by letting those groups in wholesale. So either we turn around from the inside out by breeding ourselves out of existence (the men are not anywhere as interested, they are doing the one thing that we cant do anything about. And that’s not be with us. many are going outside and importing more of those cultures)

Advertisers are leaving women and such, because there is a new high money group that never existed and they want to tap. That’s the men. single mothers have reduced purchasing ability, real live couples are now less than single mom families, single women are already tapped by women (your top mags are run by feminists exploiting women. you may not be old enough to remember, but MS magazine needed lots of cigarette ads and alcohol ads to get off the ground. So on one hand we got a rally point, on the other hand it came at the expense of millions of womens lives!!! Sneaky eh, we did it to ourselves)

Demographics… they are painting a bad picture… I guess it wasn’t all thought through, and I am not blind because I know my brother and other people that went through crazy shit only to not be helped by those that claim equality.

After that I realized it’s a sham for the few women on top, and it’s a power grab not a social movement. It’s a Marxist push a la gramsci.

And at no time do I advocate more laws!!!! Unlike the rest of the sisterhood.

Good luck

anonymous lurker's picture
Posted by anonymous lurker (not verified) on 27 September 2005 - 2:51pm
Uh huh

The very premise of your ranting is that you even have a say. Your misogyny comes through in every post now, and that is what proves my point. You represent the kind of person who wants to criminalize women exercising control over their own bodies. And your attitudes and irrational responses illustrate that quite well.

And now you're whining about birth rates. Ah ha! The real agenda emerges. You want women to breed. I see.

You know, if you did a little research instead of reading MRA websites, you'd learn that birth rates are related to the economic factors, not feminism. Agricultural societies have higher birth rates because having more children benefits the family farming efforts. Industrial societies have lower birth rates because kids cost money to raise in such environments.

But you go on believing what you want.

The way you toss that accusation around is truly off-the-wall, and has nothing to do with reproductive rights or equal protection under the law. But if it helps you sleep at night, you go on and continue making sure Marxists aren't hiding under your bed -- they're out to get you!

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 27 September 2005 - 3:27pm
Uh huh: reply

i never said anything about criminalization, and your betting that they will read your short post first rather than actually read what my long post has.

and i dont want women to "breed", at least not like cattle.. sheesh..

and the birth facts came from cia factbook and other sources... not MRA sites...

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/field...

page all the way down and you can see that the US rate is estmated for this year at .92 and your fact doesnt bear out.. though its nice and trite and makes you not question your lady leaders.

you should note that blind belief in the feminist stuff is what your promoting..

and if your paranoid... (wich as a femnist you must be)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:8xW_O9Td15IJ:

www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/statab/unpubd/natality/nat...

+united+states+birth+rate+gov&hl=en

breaks it all down from the national center for health statistics

of course this is a proven MRA safe house.. as is any place that doesnt agree with femnist opinion...

as far as the industrial comment.. well that dont fit either.. for we were a large industrial country BEFORE our drop.. the drop coincides with women working and rad feminism.

i am not saying we should be breeders.. i am just stating the facts.. draw your own conclusions and such.. or policies.. i dont set policy, nor do i recommend it.

however, if you have a goal or such, i am stating whats wrong with reaching it.

for every 5 women that work another 5 women have to have 25 babies just to maintain the population.. i dont see women that DO have babies having that many... and for growth you need more!

no trick. no stats... just very simple math..

the fact i am stating is that if you want your ideology to continue, then you have to have enough kids to carry on the cause.

part of why russia fell was because Lenin already started this same experiment... there wasnt enough births to maintain the economy that provided enough 'cash' to maintain standard of living.

without a high enoug population many of the things that you enjoy are not possible. an ASIC needs millions of units to make it worth creating.

as far as marxists.. go check out your own history. cady stanton was a registered card carrying member.. as were many others.. if you take the time to read gramsci.. a guy that worked with lenin and his crew and laid out that the US would not fall in a revolution like the bolshiviks, but would have to be taken from within.

many of the things you want are marxist in belief, if not in name.

socialism cant maintain itself. it stagnates because it removes the incentives for productivity. lots of the things that are being proposed as part of what feminists say they want are socialist.

the funny thing about the history of the red scare.. was that they were right, but looking in the wrong places (we know that now from being able to see the records that they kept).

do you think that marxists are some boogey man.. its just a political utopian ideal (like feminism), that ultimately doesnt work because it ignores that there is any such thing as human nature (just like feminists except when convenient to them).

can you even say what marxists want? do you know the ideology enough to compare it to what the femnists are proposing.

i have shown that i HAVE done the research.. and not at MRA sites.. i dont trust feminists, do you think i would trust the MRAs too? sheesh..

there is lots of good information out there not from either camp.. go look.. i doubt you will.

carefully note that each lady (?) that posted about what i said made sure to attack rather than discuss.. we have one that wanted to castrate men.. you and the other that like to throw the word rant.. putting words or conclusions i never said... and drawing such from statments that had no subtext to them.. and then claiming i want women to breed.

thats not debate, thats attacking and false argument (care to have me send you some links on all the false types of argument there are.. oh and not from a feminist or MRA place?)

personally i dont care if you breed or not.. i wont be alive here by the time the birth fall really makes a difference (2050 to 2070)...

anonymous lurker's picture
Posted by anonymous lurker (not verified) on 27 September 2005 - 8:46pm
Is that what you're doing? Debating?

You had me fooled. I thought you were regaling us with your mastery of MRA dogma. You know, we've seen all this before. You really should come up with some new material. Better yet, maybe you should get some therapy. Really. I don't see much of a future for you in politics or showbiz.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 27 September 2005 - 9:58pm
my god thats one long winded troll right there

n/t

i'm happy with my life. gotta good job, make a little more money than i need. too bad you aren't. i've never seen so much hatred and angst drip from an ibook screen.

oh but it's all our fault isn't it, that you were born too late.

too bad.

bayprairie's picture
Posted by bayprairie on 28 September 2005 - 2:13am
no xray specs?

be sure and don't leave your name or address either. that makes your comment, as you so succinctly say, worthless and pointess.

our's are really there though. you just can't see them.

bayprairie's picture
Posted by bayprairie on 28 September 2005 - 2:29am
Some Xray specs

"...some people think little girls should be seen and not heard. But I think: OH BONDAGE, UP YOURS!! 1, 2, 3, 4!!!"

www.manicexpressions.net

www.bitchingandmoaning.org

gballsout's picture
Posted by gballsout on 28 September 2005 - 9:05am
Oh captain my captain

We follow your example, noble sailor boy.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 20 September 2005 - 9:32pm
Feminists 4 SCOTUS Diversity

Grrls got Georgie Porgie on the run now... Thanks Laura! He's now hinting that his 'next' nominee will be someone 'representing diversity.'

Bush Drops 'Diversity' Hint About Nominee http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/200509...

Amynda's picture
Posted by Amynda (not verified) on 26 September 2005 - 3:43pm
B F D

The women in this country are nothing more than children. You'll give them more, then they'll want more. Perhaps if they didn't buy into the propaganda that is sold to them by opportunistic lesbians on their favorite t.v. shows, they might be able to think for themselves. Then, they'd realize that the "conservative" ways of old were there to check their behavior and protect them from an already rotten world.

Oh, yeah. And if you insist on talking seriously about reproductive rights, it might help if you stopped glorifying abortion and mislabeling it as "empowerment".

The Right Stuff's picture
Posted by The Right Stuff (not verified) on 26 September 2005 - 4:48pm
Fear of abortion - fear of parental rejection

Are those against abortion the ones who most fear that had their parents had a choice, they would have been aborted?

Matsu's picture
Posted by Matsu on 27 September 2005 - 7:48pm
john wayne's on

ways of old? thats funny. like how old? what false idealized past are you dreaming about?

another guy born too late. thats two this evening.

bayprairie's picture
Posted by bayprairie on 28 September 2005 - 2:25am
Thank you

Mr. Right Stuff, thank you for demonstrating the pinnacle of conservative male development. Nothing like a dyed-in-the-tighty-whities misogynist to make the point better than any of us could.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 26 September 2005 - 6:35pm
I tried to read thru the whole post...

but I got bored. Just a few thoughts though. pardon the caps, I'm not yelling, my HTML skills suck.

but ladies always want OPM! mens money, government money, wealthy money, everything but their own----AT 52% OF THE POPULATION, WOMEN DON'T WANT *OPM*, THEY WANT THEIR MONEY. WE ALL PAY TAXES AND AGAIN, WHAT YOU CAN'T SEEM TO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IS THAT MEN ARE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE AND YET DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THAT.

I "get this" by just listing out the numbers.. and my numbers on abortion are only ONE country!! hitler 12-15 million, mao, stalin, cant hold a candle to the collective women. though i have to admit that the women had less malice in their hearts when they did it, though i fail to see how this makes it better.---WAIT! YOU ARE COMPARING EACH INDIVIDUAL WOMAN AS A COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUS THAT ACTS JUST AS STALIN, MAO AND HITLER? ERM, THEN MEN OVERALL IN HISTORY ARE THE MOST HEINOUS CREATURES KNOWN TO HUMANS AND WOMAN CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO CATCH UP. I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE MORE ABORTIONS SO MEN DON'T FEEL SO BAD.

She would never be able to get enough protein to have a healthy child on her own…----IN THE *CAVEMAN* TIME TO WHICH YOU REFER, UNWANTED CHILDREN WERE LEFT TO THE WOLVES.

Men are not running around spouting their seed everywhere like fountains,--BWAHAHA! uMMM, ACTUALLY YES. THERE IS ONE MAN BEHIND EVERY SINGLE PREGNANCY, WANTED OR NOT, IN THE WORLD.

Here is an amazing thing. close your legs---MEN, USE A CONDOM OR KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS. YOU FIRST AS WE ARE SUCH IGNORANT SLUTS AND NEED GUIDANCE IN OUR MORAL LIVES.

i DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE FRIGHTENED BY LESBIANS AND YET DEMAND WOMEN CLOSE THEIR LEGS AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR UNPLANNED PREGNANCIES. LESBIANS DON'T GET UNINTENTIONALLY PREGNANT, SO WHEN THEY DO, THEY ARE PRETTY COMMITTED. LET 'EM BE!

and more so in the face of your belief that men are naturally more irresponsible and so god damn attractive that you just melt! and they can spew sperm - how lovely - no wonder you ladies hate what you are, you hve contempt for everything and cant see it!---EVIDENCE OF A SELF HATING WOMAN. BY THE WAY, I CAN EJACULATE WHICH WAY MORE INTERESTING TO ME THAN MALE EJACULATE. SUPER-LOVELY, IN FACT. AND CLEARLY MEN *ARE* MORE IRRESPONSIBLE THAN WOMEN. BUT YOU HAVE NOT YET ADDRESSED THIS FACT. YOU JUST KEEP ASSUMING THAT MEN HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ASK FOR AND EXPECT SEX WHILE IT IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF WOMEN TO BE CELIBATE (A VERY WORTHWHILE CHOICE), USE THE RIGHT AMOUNTS OF BIRTH CONTROL AND CARRY A BABY TO TERM WHERE SHE CAN THEN DROP THE CHILD OFF AT THE POLICE STATION. AND DID YOU BY ANY CHANCE MENTION THE OPTION OF THAT THE FATHER COULD TAKE THE CHILD AND RAISE IT? I MIGHT HAVE MISSED THAT PART.

Not having sex till your in a committed relationship--SO NO MARRIED WOMEN EVER HAVE ABORTIONS? ERM, NO, NOT TRUE AT ALL. NOR CAN EVERY COMMITTED PARTNERSHIP AFFORD A CHILD EMOTIONALLY OR FINANCIALLY OR PHYSICALLY EVERY TIME A PREGNANCY OCCURS.

If you don’t take it the night of, you have extra meds for the morning after---EXTRA MEDS AND IUDS ARE ABORTIFICANTS, JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW.

Then you can always peg another man that has more money than the father by paternity fraud.---WE USED TO LOVE DOING THAT, BUT THE STUPID DNA THING CAME UP AND RUINED IT FOR US ALL. DRAT.

The man has two options…

Don’t have sex with you

Have sex and let the wacky train ride go wherever it takes you.

WHOO-HOO FOR WACKY TRAIN RIDES!! NEXT STOP? PATERNITY PAYMENTS!! AWWW, POOR GUYS. ALWAYS GETTING THE SHAFT. :-(

OR............

THEY COULD USE BIRTH CONTROL THEMSELVES. OH, RIGHT, YOU DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. BUT WHOSE GOING TO KEEP US ON THE RIGHT PATH?

THEY COULD JUST JERK OFF TO PORN TOO. IS THAT ALLOWED? 'CAUSE THAT'S SPEWING LIKE A FOUNTAIN AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE COOL WITH THAT OR NOT.

OR NOT ASK FOR IT.

OR ONLY ENGAGING IN MUTUAL ORAL PLEASURE.

OR GET A VASECTOMY AND KEEP THEIR SPERM FROZEN SOMEWHERE FOR A FUTURE CHILD.

OR WEAR REALLY TIGHT PANTS AND LOWER THE TEMP IN THEIR SCROTUM SO THAT THEY ARE LESS FERTILE. I'VE ALSO HEARD THAT SMOKING LOWERS SPERM COUNT.

Ask my brother… (I am his sister)… his ex set him up to look like her murdered her… falsefyed testimony.. and he was forced to walk away as she took him to another state. later she ended up taking his son with her when she robbed a bank and served 1.5 years. At no time did my brother, who held steady work, apartments, and a spare room never used, had any say in anything.

And you ladies want more! ---HERE IS THE REAL SOURCE OF YOUR ANGER. i AM SORRY THAT THAT HAPPENED TO YOUR NEPHEW, BUT YOUR BROTHER MADE A STUPID CHOICE BY GETTING THAT NUTJOB PREGNANT. AND HOW EXACTLY DID SHE FALSIFY TESTIMONY TO SET HIM UP TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE HE MURDERED HER? DAMN, THAT'S SOME GOOD SHIT. I'M IMPRESSED. A WOMAN THAT CRAFTY PROLLY IS THE BEST PARENT FOR THE CHILD.

its not possible to split a home into two and maintain it (unless the man is wealthy). YES YOU CAN. THEY WILL JUST BE SMALLER HOMES. ::SHRUG:: BIG WHOOP. YOUR BROTHER SET UP A HOME, DIDN'T HE?

-------------

TO MEDIAGIRL AND OTHERS:

you can't believe how hard it was for me not to be snarky. Really, it's true. However i was thinking I could host an abortion party next month at my place for all the irresponsible chicks out there. You got a month and you don't need condoms. Just get pregnant and come over and I'll supply balloons and cake.

;-)

www.manicexpressions.net

www.bitchingandmoaning.org

gballsout's picture
Posted by gballsout on 28 September 2005 - 1:52am
reply to:I tried to read thru the whole post...

I tried to read thru the whole post...

but I got bored. Just a few thoughts though. pardon the caps, I'm not yelling, my HTML skills suck.

I am sorry that I don’t write better. It would be nice for me as well as others. And I do understand that you are finding it difficult to make the character distinctions clear in your quoting. Thanks for making sure I don’t misunderstand you.

Misunderstanding is one of the reasons my posts get so long. Take your first paragraph. If I make a short statement, you then can run all over the map with it (as you have done), and if I make a long one then I get told I am in a rant. And there is no happy medium.

Women DO want other peoples money. For the most part, the majority of women are hypergamous and when they do select their partners they practice hypergamy (The practice of marrying into an equal or more prestigious social group or caste), and this is rightly so given that you DO have a higher burden in procreation. However, in order for this to happen, men have to be willing to marry equals or marry down! This is why women, in general, have to look at more things when making their choices, and why promiscuity and “accidents� undermine this process. For while she is having fun, which is all well and good, she has an accidental pregnancy. Bbecause SHE failed to live up to the agreement that she made (by implication that this is not a marriage relationship, but her fun time till marriage later, and so when both lay with each other, the intent is not to procreate), and he understood, and now wants to burden him when SHE had a choice. Given her greater burden, greater penalty, and more. Is it really correct to then NOT act accordingly and protect yourself?

Note that I am not telling anyone what to do. What I am saying here is “is this what you want out of it�, even if she has an abortion and its all free and whatever, that’s still a stain on her (not a scarlet letter stain, but a stain that her life was not what it was before – screw what other people thing at that point, its what SHE thinks that is important, and you cant tell me she feels better after leaving the office and even years later.

I agree we all pay taxes. However, there is a large proportion of women that are on welfare that is no where matched in numbers by men (even if you remove children from this number, there is still more childless women receiving the dole than men). welfare is OPM. The number of desperate housewives that do not work vastly exceeds the number of men that get to stay home on their wives money. And so, that’s OPM.

When women wish affirmative action in monetary candy from the government they as a group are not putting in as much as men as a group, and so men share a larger tax burden to provide to women that are not their family, and that they don’t even know.

The truth is that men are not EQUALLY responsible; they are being held to HIGHER responsibility and are balking at the mismatch (more than 40% of women are deadbeat, if you were really about equality then you would be going after your deadbeat sisters JUST as hard as going after the men – and the men would side with you in a instant – not doing it is a lie and hypocrisy). If you think that fairness is that each receives according to their needs, then you are a Marxist (and that phrase is a direct quote from marx).

Also other alternatives are not desired by women, even though it would also balance the books. For example, how many women marry a man they love and support him for the rest of his life while he stays home and takes care of the house. Damn few, for if he does exactly what she does, he is a bum. Why isn’t a housewife a bum? Because she went to yale, married a yale man, forgoes her professional future and settles down? Nope. Its because you have some special dispensations, and if feminists were really interested in stopping the pendulum in the middle, they would also call those women bums, OR stop women from calling that type of man a bum. They do neither.

I "get this" by just listing out the numbers.. and my numbers on abortion are only ONE country!! hitler 12-15 million, mao, stalin, cant hold a candle to the collective women. though i have to admit that the women had less malice in their hearts when they did it, though i fail to see how this makes it better.---WAIT! YOU ARE COMPARING EACH INDIVIDUAL WOMAN AS A COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUS THAT ACTS JUST AS STALIN, MAO AND HITLER? ERM, THEN MEN OVERALL IN HISTORY ARE THE MOST HEINOUS CREATURES KNOWN TO HUMANS AND WOMAN CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO CATCH UP. I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE MORE ABORTIONS SO MEN DON'T FEEL SO BAD.

Not really. No one has an abortion to defend their country, and women as a group are MORE hawkish than men, for they don’t have to pay the actual price, but they do get the fruits of that labor.

If men didn’t do what you are lamenting about, then you would not be in a free country. You would not be in a place where we could discuss these points at all.

And the fact that women are hypergamous means that you set the program that the men need more to have or meet better women. how does a man acquire more, if all the women want him to have more in order for him to be worthy in her eyes. Women have tied success to fertility choices, if this was decoupled then men would not need to conquest in order to appease the women. study your history and you will find that Hitler was VOTED into office by women who just got the ability to vote. It was women that put him in power. the hundred years war was maintained by the matriarchs of the two respective houses. Even if you go back as far as Rome, you would have met Agrippina. Don’t know her? She RAN Rome from behind the scenes, and controlled the emperors. Tiberius feared her as did Agustus her granddad. She was a very dangerous woman (and her son was a nut job). Then there was mary tudor, she sent more men to war than men did before her. So when you tally war, you better figure on the WOMEN that sent the men to do the work, there are a lot of them.

And where would women be without the protection of men? prior to police (which is a very modern invention!), there was NO protection other than the men in your life, and they would die to protect you (something that in these posts is clear you wouldn’t do for them – ding! Another inequal point!). and ladies needed protecting because at some point we got big brains and had to deliver the child before its head was so large that MORE women would die in childbirth.

Note that everything is linked… you cant stand and cogently argue that men are warriors who want nothing but blood, then look around and note that we don’t live in a warrior culture and that most cultures are not warrior cultures. Those that were, didn’t last all that long, eventually others team up and get rid of it, and so it doesn’t really take hold except for some plays for property and land and things, of which the men got to keep it, and their wives, and the children of those women got to have better lives.

Don’t curse with on hand and accept with the other. you cant curse war, battle and such, which was for a purpose greater than the personal games and such. And then compare that to a abortion that occurred because it would be more difficult to attend school.

The only reason I make the comparison is that both were willful murders, and while Hitler didn’t actually kill people himself, HIS FOLLOWERS DID… and while feminists don’t actually go into the room and do the abortion, THEIR FOLLOWERS DO.

The makers of ideology and promotion of it are the ones to blame for the carnage that occurs. If your ideology is one of death for convenience (and that’s what it is, when there are MANY other alternatives), then its not much different for stalin, hitler, mao, were just killing out of convenience toward their goals.

She would never be able to get enough protein to have a healthy child on her own…----IN THE *CAVEMAN* TIME TO WHICH YOU REFER, UNWANTED CHILDREN WERE LEFT TO THE WOLVES.

Not really… that’s not true (though there was more than one culture that threw the infirm to the wolves). Archeological records show that statement to be false. Primitive societies of humans value their children much more than our industrialized country does. Immigrant women from countries more family oriented do not abort. And they are willing to struggle with a lot less than the majority of the women in the states that do get abortions!!!

There are no archeological records of childrens bones with teeth marks of animals in any number. There are graves where they are buried and honored. And you also have to note that unlike today a child was an adult at 14, and died by 25.

The other thing was that mothers were the ones that often kill their children for many reasons. Infanticide is by far a ladies practice. Some even today have several children and kill them and then have more. Its sad, they are sick, and that’s that.

Men are not running around spouting their seed everywhere like fountains,--BWAHAHA! uMMM, ACTUALLY YES. THERE IS ONE MAN BEHIND EVERY SINGLE PREGNANCY, WANTED OR NOT, IN THE WORLD.

Yeah, media girl made a silly point.

Here is an amazing thing. close your legs---MEN, USE A CONDOM OR KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS. YOU FIRST AS WE ARE SUCH IGNORANT SLUTS AND NEED GUIDANCE IN OUR MORAL LIVES.

i DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE FRIGHTENED BY LESBIANS AND YET DEMAND WOMEN CLOSE THEIR LEGS AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR UNPLANNED PREGNANCIES. LESBIANS DON'T GET UNINTENTIONALLY PREGNANT, SO WHEN THEY DO, THEY ARE PRETTY COMMITTED. LET 'EM BE!

again, you switch the burden off the one that can most easily facilitate the solution to someone that has only one solution at their disposal vs your twenty.

I never called you ignorant sluts, nor is that what I am thinking (and you shouldn’t either, that’s nasty). What I am stating is the obvious truth that your forladies knew. That the more time without sex that you have with someone the more you know their sincerity. That’s just practical. However, men are no longer tricking women in to bed, the women are running their on their own, picking men up, etc.

However, the women also are not intending to marry these men that they are having sex, and if they wished to continue, they should have to take precautions or stop.

No one is telling her to actually not have sex, what I am saying is that if you cant take complete and total responsibility before the fact, then you leave others less culpable. If all women used birth control responsibly then it would be much easier to get men or lesbian mates to pay up. However, irresponsibility undermines credibility. And undermines your cause.

Its about what the feminists want out of this. I am not picking a side, I am saying that what you are doing or promoting goes against what your say the ideology is and its ability to reach its goals unhindered.

BY THE WAY, I CAN EJACULATE WHICH WAY MORE INTERESTING TO ME THAN MALE EJACULATE. SUPER-LOVELY, IN FACT. AND CLEARLY MEN *ARE* MORE IRRESPONSIBLE THAN WOMEN. BUT YOU HAVE NOT YET ADDRESSED THIS FACT. YOU JUST KEEP ASSUMING THAT MEN HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ASK FOR AND EXPECT SEX WHILE IT IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF WOMEN TO BE CELIBATE (A VERY WORTHWHILE CHOICE), USE THE RIGHT AMOUNTS OF BIRTH CONTROL AND CARRY A BABY TO TERM WHERE SHE CAN THEN DROP THE CHILD OFF AT THE POLICE STATION. AND DID YOU BY ANY CHANCE MENTION THE OPTION OF THAT THE FATHER COULD TAKE THE CHILD AND RAISE IT? I MIGHT HAVE MISSED THAT PART.

Men aren’t more irresponsible, people are all fuckups. Be honest. 20 forms of birth control and few have the common sense to apply two, and are willing to accept the turmoil (whatever it is), over that use of another birth control source. And you are claiming it all his irresponsibility because he didn’t use the ONE form he has (which diminishes his pleasure in many cases. Which is the same reason why women don’t use the female condom! The ladies make the same claim, and yet the men are bad, the ladies are good).

The whole culture you are in and all that is around you is because of mens responsible actions. The computer your are on is a product of that. The democratic republic was a creation of men for ALL. a pretty responsible act.

Perhaps I would agree that the men are irresponsible if they had the same number of options (equality), but they don’t, and just like women need extra when they don’t have the options, equality dictates that the men get extra consideration when they don’t have options.

And to address your comment on the men raising the children. The women don’t let them. The woman that drops the kid off at the police (or kills it and throws it in the garbage, which happens a lot here in the city – a recent one been found to have thrown several over the years in a air shaft), is attempting to avoid the child support. The drop off law does not require her to name a father, so the system allows her to skirt HER responsibility. Whats more is that if she was responsible, then those laws would not be needed, she could turn the kid over and such. So while there are tons of men that would love to raise their children (my brother being one of them, and who is depressed in that all he ever wanted was a good family and such), they are not allowed to do so. (fathers 4 justice shows and all those mens orgs show that they do want their kids, and whats more, men didn’t care much for the favoritism that women were garnering till the ladies started taking their kids. It was the taking of the children that kicked off the mens rights movement! So I guess they did care).

Not having sex till your in a committed relationship--SO NO MARRIED WOMEN EVER HAVE ABORTIONS? ERM, NO, NOT TRUE AT ALL. NOR CAN EVERY COMMITTED PARTNERSHIP AFFORD A CHILD EMOTIONALLY OR FINANCIALLY OR PHYSICALLY EVERY TIME A PREGNANCY OCCURS.

I am sorry. I was not clear. If you insure that there is a REAL relationship, then it is less likely that abortion would be necessary, and people would not be fighting to get rid of abortion!!! (well, lots that have joined the fray recently would shut up and go home).

Why does a married woman have an abortion? Because she didn’t use birth control when they were together (or she was one of those nut jobs from one of those pregnancy sites that trade how to get pregnant when the husband or boyfriend don’t want one! and yes there are forums like this. totally amazing).

What I am saying is that there are other options that would reduce the need to terminate a pregnancy. And by not using, and exhausting all those other options first, the ladies are being irresponsible (I knew one woman that had 7 abortions! And that’s wrong!).

The other point is that if you notice my reticence on abortion is conditional. Its not an ideological choice, but a practical one. I am only stating the way that things are, and the way they should be IF abortion as an option is to be preserved. I am not saying out of hand that all abortions are to be stopped, but it cant go on so willy nilly with women defending whatever a womans behavior is as correct no matter how much damage those actions have and no matter how much ability and options she had to prevent the situations.

Think of it this way, be more responsible and the right cant say shit. Demanding responsibility from others than yourself does not work. Men to women, or women to men, such demands are not just ignored, but often reversed to make spite and prove a point. and then demanding connections and such to people you don’t want to have in your life as a ‘solution’ is piling bad on top of bad.

What do you ladies want out of this? if you want abortion to exist, then you cant yell at the men when you have lots of methods of taking control of your own life, which was the whole damn point of feminism!! Fighting so that she doesn’t have to accept uncomfortable consequences of her own decision is not freedom, its imprisonment to a life of bad decisions and hobbled patchwork fixes.

As far as finances go, most women that are having these abortions are not having them for financial reasons.. in the first post I detailed the tree major reasons given… and money is not one of them. You can raise a kid in this country with little money. They may not have lots of clothes, cell phones, computers, cable and such. But real good people came from homes without these things and only two good parents. Both parents are needed, their styles are complimentary, and teach the children things that single mother OR single father homes cant do.

Here goes a fun fact – when there is no biological father in the house, the age of onset in puberty lowers in females lowers. Having another male does not do it. the daughters biology picks up on his mhc compatibility markers and holds off puberty because she is in a protected environment. And contrary to your cave point above, when she doesn’t smell these markers, her puberty starts right about the time that she can live on her own (about 9 to 11 years old). There are lots of strange things like this. (I work in a medical library).

If you don’t take it the night of, you have extra meds for the morning after---EXTRA MEDS AND IUDS ARE ABORTIFICANTS, JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW.

So? they work, don’t they.. they don’t require her to go through mental anguish. They don’t require her to potentially hurt another family with her choice, and then hurt for guilt in making that choice.

I am not against abortion like a religious nut or a rad… I am against that final thing with a viable person when the causes and such are frivolous over better reasons. Rape is a very good reason, desease, danger, etc. but having school inconvenienced because you forgot to take a pill and didn’t have a second form is not a good reason.

Then you can always peg another man that has more money than the father by paternity fraud.---WE USED TO LOVE DOING THAT, BUT THE STUPID DNA THING CAME UP AND RUINED IT FOR US ALL. DRAT.

HA! Thanks for the laugh.. it means that we might just have an interesting conversation (now I can only hope that later you don’t slip into the banshee personal attack mode. You haven’t yet and its admirable, and this was just so much fun).. thanks for understanding that I was being tongue in cheek with a real situation that is not good.

Now to address it seriously. DNA did not ruin it. DNA does not absolve men from paying support for other mens children! If she cheats in a marriage (and only about 35-40% of women do, compared to 40-50% of men. given that men would exaggerate up, and women would exaggerate down, we probably cheat near the same numbers, which would make sense), and has a kid, and doenst tell the dad. He gets to pay support for a kid that wasn’t his, BECAUSE of whats left out of your statement that would make it true. And that’s paternity test at birth (but that would show how many women are having children that the men don’t know is theirs! That’s about 33%!!! Confirmed over and over and over, from military records to birth records to those wonderful studies the dutch can do but others cant).

Personally I don’t think that women love doing this. I think its wishful thinking. She sleeps with more than one, this makes conception ambiguous at best. (of course she is one person having sex with many people and its all those other peoples fault by your logic, not the one persons fault!). when she gets the results and she needs the dad to step up, she naturally picks the one she wishes it to be. Whatever the real reason and play is, it amounts to shopping. And it could have all been avoided if she turned off her fertility till SHE was ready, and not rely on the many, or the one form that he has that really isn’t that good (condoms break, slip off, leak.. the ladies form of control does not do this).

In essence you are arguing that its his fault for not using a more faulty birth control than is available to her (often for free).

The man has two options…

Don’t have sex with you

Have sex and let the wacky train ride go wherever it takes you.

WHOO-HOO FOR WACKY TRAIN RIDES!! NEXT STOP? PATERNITY PAYMENTS!! AWWW, POOR GUYS. ALWAYS GETTING THE SHAFT. :-(

OR............

THEY COULD USE BIRTH CONTROL THEMSELVES. OH, RIGHT, YOU DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. BUT WHOSE GOING TO KEEP US ON THE RIGHT PATH?

The reason I said the wacky train ride is that his form of control is medieval and about as effective as medieval medicine. Not to mention that there are a lot of women that don’t want the men to use condoms either and tell them they are protected (this is how my brother got snagged). My friend carol wont have sex with the guy if he wears one (I tell her that she is being stupid, and that she should double up, but just like you she will let the sky fall rather than do that – I think this is a variation of the death wish in psychology. it’s a birth wish)

THEY COULD JUST JERK OFF TO PORN TOO. IS THAT ALLOWED? 'CAUSE THAT'S SPEWING LIKE A FOUNTAIN AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE COOL WITH THAT OR NOT.

OR NOT ASK FOR IT.

Ha! I love it!!! but we were talking her options, not his. And this is included in not having sex with her. But as you can see, not having sex to protect yourself, leads the men to some other way to relieve themselves (just as your fighting for the ladies to be able to relieve themselves). Unlike the ladies though only a small set of men can get sex when they want (we are not considering prostitution to be a healthy alternative). Personally.. her taking two forms of birth control, everyone having fun with real people, not fantasy screen dips, would be better. the feminists don’t think so.

OR ONLY ENGAGING IN MUTUAL ORAL PLEASURE.

OR GET A VASECTOMY AND KEEP THEIR SPERM FROZEN SOMEWHERE FOR A FUTURE CHILD.

OR WEAR REALLY TIGHT PANTS AND LOWER THE TEMP IN THEIR SCROTUM SO THAT THEY ARE LESS FERTILE. I'VE ALSO HEARD THAT SMOKING LOWERS SPERM COUNT.

Oral pleasure I agree I left out… but, again we were talking womens options and you would have fucked me over the coals if I suggested one of the ladies options was to blow him. But like I mentioned above, if its too long it’s a rant, if its too short you throw it all around.

And a vasectomy is sterilization. Which becomes a problem if this sex is a prelude to a relationship that will go forward and then want children. By saying men should take this option you then increase the lady lottery that the man she will choose will be one that she cant have a baby she wants with him. (a woman not wanting a baby though, has no problem here). I don’t think that making a majority of men sterile will make women who want them happy. Which is why men don’t do it!

Ask my brother… (I am his sister)… his ex set him up to look like her murdered her… falsefyed testimony.. and he was forced to walk away as she took him to another state. later she ended up taking his son with her when she robbed a bank and served 1.5 years. At no time did my brother, who held steady work, apartments, and a spare room never used, had any say in anything.

And you ladies want more! ---HERE IS THE REAL SOURCE OF YOUR ANGER. i AM SORRY THAT THAT HAPPENED TO YOUR NEPHEW, BUT YOUR BROTHER MADE A STUPID CHOICE BY GETTING THAT NUTJOB PREGNANT. AND HOW EXACTLY DID SHE FALSIFY TESTIMONY TO SET HIM UP TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE HE MURDERED HER? DAMN, THAT'S SOME GOOD SHIT. I'M IMPRESSED. A WOMAN THAT CRAFTY PROLLY IS THE BEST PARENT FOR THE CHILD.

I also know about a dozen more guys, and I damn well know women too that behind the closed doors admit to all this shit. So this is common, not uncommon, though my brothers situation IS more extreme.

My brother didn’t have much choice. He was 20, met her, and she played games. She later admitted to dropping her pill in the garbage rather than take it. with a rubber he cant maintain an erection, so when he uses a condom its more dangerous, AND if he cant perform he loses his relationship. So he went with her to the doctor, and they together (seemingly) got birth control and both were making the effort. However, she had alterior motives, and he was not a control freak to stand over her and watch her take her pills.

The murder thing? oh that was easy. Wreck the apartment, go to a hotel, and sit and wait. The family then comes to search for her, and picks her up. The rest is automatic by the system against the men! she had to do nothing else! Her friend at the time worked for the state and explained all the benefits if she can bankrupt him and do this shit. To make it even better, the baby they had was visiting family and was returning the day of the incident.

No matter what my brother did, he was guilty. The fact that he waited to make a report made him guilty, but knowing that you cant make one for 24 hours made him wait. The idea was that the police would question him at work, and at night and such. The police are not what people think they are, and my brother now knows it. of course his career that was on the fast track was destroyed.

He really thought something happened to her. So he didn’t go to court and seek permanent custody for her abandoning the child with him. He didn’t want her to be found and then come home and find he betrayed her. He wanted his son to have his mother. So the child went to his parents. Because he didn’t get that custody, and grandparents have no rights, she after 6 months appeared. Walked up to their door with police and says “give me my baby�.

Well it went to court in another state out of the legal venue that was the law (you have to fight such things in the court in which the child was born or is resident – this keeps both parents from shopping for a better deal). The neighbor of the family was a retired state supreme court judge, and decided to help and go to court pro-bono. My brother was having a hell of a time in another state trying to earn enough money to pay for her lawyer (they made him pay). They went in, and the lawyer claimed that he hit her, which was not true at all. my brother is a big guy, and does not fight. He is very clever (and so am i), and I am sad to say not devious enough to have protected himself. He was done in by the fact that he comes from a real good family, and a system that says all men are responsible for all outcomes and they are guilty till they can prove otherwise. The case folded then for in child court allegations and hearsay from the mother have a different burden of truth and are admissible. His hearsay is not.

The story get worse. The lawyer he has in the state in which he is in informs him that he will never get to see his kid again, and that the only chance he has of being any kind of dad, was to get back together with her! It wasn’t long till she hated what she was running from in the first place and I guess felt a bit guilty, or didn’t have enough from him. So she offered to come back and try again. It was good for him, for he was cow toed, but he was able to be with his son every day. He spent his savings and rented the bottom of a house. There was two bedrooms a living room, computer room, large dining room with a view, the child has his own room, and a large yard. He was a great dad. Its all he ever wanted to be (ok, that and a scientist – he never got that either).

Well the other friend showed up again and the poison pill started. he was paying for her college so she could get good work once the child was a bit older (he doesn’t like day care… he knows what goes on in them, and trust family more. I guess he is right, today in the paper is a woman busted for making a drug deliever while caring for a child, and the parents did extensive background checks!! And over 40 interviews!). t

Turns out that this was all the plan. Tear him down, get back and then tear the rest down. He gave her money to pay the rent and such. Trying to make the family a team effort (that’s how our family is, we all pitch in. it’s a community thing). this allowed her to take the money and send it to her family. The landlord was being put off by her, and was a real nice guy wanting to help the young couple with the baby (I guess the landlord is evil too cause he is a man).

Well.. one day she said that she was leaving. She took the child and went to the poison pills house. The child slept in the closet. My brother gave all the toys and such. And then found out that he had nothing. That he was so in debt and didn’t know it. they came to work, and they yelled that he was a deadbeat and that they didn’t have enough money. He couldn’t give them anything. Had to find a new home.. he struggled and struggled.

One of the hardest days was the day after she left. The son wanted to see his dad, and so they went out to a movie. He carries the photo that they took together from the cheap photo booth, for that’s all he is allowed to have.

He lucked out and met another woman that became a friend. She was in a similar boat in that the courts put her man in jail and was fucking him over and not letting her have a say. By that time, it was so bad that a large part of it is now automatic, and cant be reigned in by the parties (that’s the feminists who set it up that way, using some of the same logic as here. if she is with the system then she is awake and aware, if she is not then she must be programmed and so cant make decisions for herself, and so no matter what, the only outcome is the bad one for the guy!).

That woman helped my brother a lot, and he helped her a lot. Her kids had some medical problems and the doctor treating them asked this woman to get him to him. You see, my brother was suicidal by this time, he had no hope (and he was right). Well, he took care of her kids and was able to tell the doctor things that the mother didn’t realize, for he is a real smart guy (170 IQ, social skills down a bit, denied education because he was a male, and women with lesser creds got to go first. So his brilliance is wastes – he creates great artwork, and he is a haute couture photographer, software engineer and more. But he studied at home with textbooks he bought for cheap by going to the college bookstore and paid a bit more to the students than they would get back from the store, and so got them cheap – he is a true renaissance man).

This lady knew all the tricks (the lawyers the give the ladies inform them of all that they can do and get away with, and so the ladies choose to win. So a lot of it isn’t the individual ladies fault, but the fault of the feminists that made the laws not consider men at all, and not focus on womens bad as much, and so slants the court. Further protections on the ladies side makes the judgements and such a secret court, so the public cant really know the extent of things –which is why I know the fathers groups reason for being – it reached critical mass till strangers were to compare notes when they randomly met! That’s how bad it is, and that’s what the feminists don’t realize, AND they don’t get that ultimately it will undermine them, which is why I am posting the dynamics! It allows you all to make a choice as to what you want the outcome to be before that outcome is thrust upon you without desire).

The lady went with him to pick up the kid. He never was allowed to walk to the house. All contact had to be through this lady. He learned before that ANY time you are alone (which is most of the time for most people), you have no alibi and you have no means to protect yourself from a false allegation. So he couldn’t enjoy his new apartment. He had to make sure that he was in public or with people and collecting receipts all the time. or else she would claim that he hit her or intimidated her. This is why the lady went to her! She knew that this would be the card that she would play. And she did!! but it didn’t work thanks to this lady.

[please relize that as long as this is, I am cutting it down a LOT)

There was abuse by the poison pill. At one point the child had a 105 fever and they took him around the county on errands and mc dees. Eventually the child was passing out and they called my brother. He got there, and realized what happened, grabbed the kid and ran for the hospital up the road, dialing on the cell phone ahead to get things right. When the child was young he went to every pediatricians visit, that was till she went up one day and cried and lied and the physician called child protection (as he HAS to by laws again put forth by feminists – check out how each of these laws went into place, and you would know. Its not a blanket blame, its just open eyes).

That doctor wanted the son to go home with his father, the father disbarred the poison pill from the hospital. It was awful. Like the fems here they all ganged up on my brother that the reason he took the boy to the hospital was so that he could look like a hero. Yeah, my bro has a lot of experience (and so do I now), on this broken logic that is even evident here, and the automatic ad hominem attacks out of hand, just like here too).

Eventually she couldn’t take the rad fem poison pill (who believed that all men were rapists and beaters and such, and if they weren’t it was only a matter of time. she was abused by her family, and suffered bouts of schizophrenic episodes, and was in charge of watching the child all the time as the mother finally had to work. The mother started to get antsy and realize that this nut job feminist had her own agenda, and so was real dangerous). She wanted to visit her dad and such claiming (for the umpteenth time that he was about to die), and that she would be back. my brother protested knowing her, and she disappeared.

Through more shit, he was denied his parental rights (for only women have parental rights, and of course women stand for equality and fairness, right? I think not). they signed contracts and such and he was supposed to have the child half of the time, and split holidays and such. This never happened. You see its criminal if he misses a payment, but there is no penalty for her for breach of contract (in fact women can breach marriage contracts and sometimes prenups too! Something that men cant do. Contract law has some special outs – which means that its unreliable to have a contract with a woman – you see how this all undermines good women too?)

He was lucky that our parents live in her state (that’s how he met her, on a family visit, and that’s how she thought he was from a wealthy family, which we aren’t at all. OPM again. It all breaks down to the money, and nothing else, which it’s a shame, but I know its true. My brother is not the only man I know). The luck is what it is and as the child grew up, he could not afford the plane fares and could not deduct them from support. Of course she would send the child in dirty clothes and bad clothes, which we would replace and then she would do it again. It allowed her to make a bit more trading them, and stuff (and you don’t want to know the incidents that came later with other men and bs!).

The worst time my brother had was after two years he was able to save enough to see his son. He wore the shirt that he was given on fathers day by the boy (through his grandparents), and the hat that the boy picked out. it was two years, he was finally to see him. Boy was he happy. We brought the boy to the airport and boy was the child excited. He missed his dad so much! My brother was the last out of the plane, and they closed the tunnel door behind him. The boy freaked out and ran around the airport screaming that his father didn’t show up, and trying to run down other doors searching for him. All the wile his father stood their and was finally broken. His son no longer remembered him.

Mom moved from place to place scamming and shit. Taking the kid with her, and other stuff, but there was nothing to be done. If he said anything everyone called him a misogynist, JUST like you ladies called me here! that’s the SHAME HIM WITH A BAD NAME SO HE SHUTS UP technique (which is why it was pulled on me here – it tries to kill honest conversation, and its always pulled out, for the leaders don’t want there to be an honest talk. When you post a bit you start to see a nasty pattern in almost all the femnist sites, and I learned that by hiding my sex! Try it, you may learn something).

Eventually she took her kids and my son to a bank and proceeded to commit frauds their. She used the kids in the other banks so it was easy for the manager to know to watch out for da lady with two babies and a teenager that may come in and rip you off. well, she entered, they engaged, and the cops showed up. His son spent 6 hours in jail till he called his grandparents. This was the best thing that could happen to the boy. You see he then came to live with his fathers grandparents, and finally had a stable home, computer and education. The father couldn’t provide this, because he had to claim total bankruptcy. This from a guy with a 40k credit limit at 19, and only that low because he didn’t want it higher. He hasn’t had any credit for more than 15 years and is now finally starting to get a bit of it (he is hoping to be able to get a 1k line so he can help his son, who just entered college on scholarship and had graduated with high honors. Smart like his dad, but denied learning anything from him. They were so close. Like a Rockwell painting. Note that there are many feminist quotes that say so what about my brothers position, if a few men get trapped our of all the evil ones, that acceptable. There is one major lady that said a man could learn from a false accusation of rape)

Of course this meant that his dad could visit him less. Why? Because now he has to continue child support, and still does, to the mom for the boy (and has to till the boy gets his Phd!). And he pays money to our parents so that they don’t have it so hard. As you can see, the system doesn’t allow him to do the right thing, and so THAT’S why your ladies think the men aren’t stepping up. Those fems that changed the laws want it this way, it preserves your hatred and allows them to do more! The more angry and name calling you do, the happier the leaders that are using you get. They want discord and fear for without it there can be no blame and no power given to fix it (which it never gets fixed so that the power doesn’t diminish).

My brother hasn’t had a relationship with a woman for more than nine years. He tried a few, but they ALL started playing variations on the game (though not so extreme, and he wouldn’t wait to find out). after some woman he started to live with started beating on him (he’s big, so he cant do anything to defend himself. If she gets a blemish HE goes to jail. Thanks to VAWA and such!). he had to tell her to get out, to which she destroyed his property on the way out. there was nothing he could do. Just clean up, repair what he could, and throw out what he couldn’t. his career that was so bright with the fortune 10 companies was over. He could not get work, you see he was a murder suspect, and that company that he was vested in didn’t want to have anything to do, and didn’t want to give ANY reference in case he really was a murderer. He was made guilty of a crime that never happened and suffers today more than 10 years later.

Right now he finally is trying again. He has met a nice Indonesian girl. He wont bother with American women. he knows they aren’t all bad, but there is no way to tell. And when a lawyer wispers in your ear when your pissed your relationhship didn’t work out, well, she says “if that’s what I am entitiled to then I guess it must be ok�. When I divorced my first husband, I heard the wispers myself. I fired that lawyer, got another one. we didn’t end it the way everyone else does, and now I am married to a wonderful man. I am also pregnant with my first child after many miscarriages. My brother is real excited that he will have a child to play with again and teach, except I live on the opposite coast, and he cant afford to see his own son, let alone have vacations and family.

His foreign lady is wonderful, and he is too scared to marry her, and she wants a kid. He knows the second he steps their if she yells he hit me, he gets jail, she gets citizenship, and he gets raped till he is 65… then can start over again then.. right now he has nothing and will never retire. No house, no home, no money. Nothing. That’s what he is left with.

He doesn’t associate with many people any more. Mostly is depressed. He has no pictures of his son growing up. Just the few that he has when the boy was a child and maybe eight or so others from high school. he wanted to see the plays and thigns, but the lawyer warned him that she can have him jailed for trespassing on the school property. He used to sometimes go to the part and sit and watch the families on the swings and dream (I am close to him, we always have been. He has no one to talk to that he can trust, so that’s why I know so much. The phone calls are hard). But now everyone is a pedophile and if you sit in the part without a child it’s a 1k fine and nine months in jail.

He keeps trying to build a small company he started. went to the SBA, but was told to give up, since the only money that the banks want to loan out are to women owned businesses. they get an extra quarter million over the men, a lower interest rate, the loan is guaranteed so the banks clamor, they get a lower tax rate for the business and for having employees. AND due to the five x five laws get an extra representation over men in a second database which has fewer companies and has to have bids. He cant compete with someone that gets all that advantage from the get go. And has no fortune of his own. His credit is still gone. So yeah, this is equality!!!

He tried to go back to school, but cant get any grants and scholarships. There are tons for the ladies though (boy was he pissed when he heard the yale women taking their education and throwing it away).

So this is the equality you ladies are fighting for. I know more than eight young men that have similar stories. And my husband knows a lot more (since the guys talk amongst themselves)

its not possible to split a home into two and maintain it (unless the man is wealthy). YES YOU CAN. THEY WILL JUST BE SMALLER HOMES. ::SHRUG:: BIG WHOOP. YOUR BROTHER SET UP A HOME, DIDN'T HE?

Your right they COULD, but they don’t. the law lets her live in the house that he bought, kicks the guy out, and he has to continue paying for it. that’s the norm. though the public gets nothing but the fem lines, because you all gang up on everything! If a man peeps, you all mobilize, so the truth isn’t out there. my brother wasn’t married, and so was lucky. But the norm is the lady keeps the current place, the man has to find another, and she gets a lot of support. I know you don’t think so, but its true. In this state she gets a minimum of 17% of GROSS, which comes to more than 22% of a mans after tax salary. He has to pay the meds, and if she wants private school, he has to pay for that too (and has no say in it). she can deny him visitation with no punishment, and he gets clipped if he says anything bad about her (shield laws). She gets to get that money tax free (so much for your claim that we all pay taxes), and if he makes more than 150k the support is enough that she doesn’t have to work at all (so its open season on the best men by the worst women – with good women getting fucked!!!). she gets aid to dependent children a tax break for head of household, and she gets to claim the exemption that he is paying for getting a few grand more. If she doesn’t work then the support doesn’t count to the total for government assistance and so she can get free medical, free dental and more. Including food, birth control and even transportation tickets. There is a lot more she can get!!!!

So yeah.. this is equality!

TO MEDIAGIRL AND OTHERS:

you can't believe how hard it was for me not to be snarky. Really, it's true. However i was thinking I could host an abortion party next month at my place for all the irresponsible chicks out there. You got a month and you don't need condoms. Just get pregnant and come over and I'll supply balloons and cake.

Its been done (divorce parties are now starting to be the ‘in’ thing!) . though be warned they may think it’s a meeting for a political group refered to as the “abortion PARTY�.

I must compliment you on not being “snarky�, and nasty. You surprised me from my prior comment way above! For usually there is an attack.

The whole thing is a god damn mess. No one is getting anything good out of it. not men. not women.

Again. I am not telling anyone what to do. But I do have my opinions and you are all grown ups that can make up your own minds.

Thanks for letting me have my opinion be heard… without censorship (usually the femnist sites remove the commentary – some of the ladies on your list are legend for it!)

And with not too much cat calling, shaming, and out right nastiness (though its in every feminist post to some degree)

Now, if we could only build a one shot time machine so my brother could have a chance at just one of his dreams.

anonymous lurker's picture
Posted by anonymous lurker (not verified) on 28 September 2005 - 10:37am
I don't have the energy

I can't respond to everything. I do think you have feminists wrong. Mediagirl didn't mess with your posts, as you said. You have a right to your opinions and I honor that. I don't like to attack people personally, a debate is a debate is a debate.

Think about this for just a moment though. You mentioned that girls used to become fertile at 12 and die at 25. (I do believe that multiple pregnancies carried to term had alot to do with that.) That is a mere 13 years of the possibility of pregnancy. Now they become fertile at 11/12 and it goes through to about 50 something. That's 30 years...a long time to continue to fight against the body's biological desire to become pregnant. 12 times a year times 30= 360!!! Even using the best forms of birth control available, that's a lot of fight.

Women in Latin American countries, who are more "family-oriented" have abortions illegally at the same rate as everyone else. But they die more.

"The whole culture you are in and all that is around you is because of mens responsible actions. The computer your are on is a product of that. The democratic republic was a creation of men for ALL. a pretty responsible act."

That statement is incongruous to your entire post. You brought up several women in history who have been behind the male despots and the fact that women want war (which I don't agree with at all as they lose husbands and sons, whom they do love and war creates situations for women to be raped and die, which certainly isn't something one would wish for) and yet you divide the sexes into destroyers and producers. Unfair "genderalization". Even if I were to agree with you, women produce more than men by sheer childbirth if not one thing more. And they haven't had historical access to the education needed to produce as much as men in other types of creation. That is why women get places in the education system over men, as you said. I don't believe that a *lesser* woman or minority of any type gets placed over a more *worthy* man, but that is your belief. Couldn't your brother have gone to another school?

I'd like less abortions. I believe everyone would like less abortions. I can't control your acquaintance who has had 7 any more than I can control GWB. I want to educate and I want to make available birth control (twenty forms? really? come on---name them all) as well as the information it takes to use it. Feminists do not want to have a world of rampant abortions, they want a world where they have unrestricted *access* to legal and safe abortions. So that's the point I think you are missing. It's called a pro-choice stance not b/c it's more digestable, but b/c they (I) believe that it should only be the right of the individual to make the decision to go forth. Men, unfortunately, cannot and should not be able to make that decision for women. Only the woman can. However, if men are reckless by not using condoms or not engaging in sexual relations in a committed relationship where the probability rises that a pregnancy would be wanted, then they have to only deal with the choice the woman makes. It's tough luck, but until the fetus can be transferred to the male for the term, it's the way it is.

here's another thought to follow: if men are the great creators, how come 40 years have passed since the last great breakthrough in birth control happened and it happened to women only? where's the male pill? Why do they only have condoms when you state there are so many forms available to women? And I still think that you skirt any male responsibility. As for your brother's erections (TMI for a sister to know!!!!), I am truly sorry, but he just has to deal with it. He should be protecting himself from AIDS anyway b/c he does have a poor history of a making good choices in relationships. Not all women are like that and he needs to learn to stay away and alone if he has to. I personally would NEVER enjoy coital sexual relations with a man who wasn't prepared to wear a condom every single time unless we were planning to become parents. I don't want to divide the sexes. I want men to become more aware of what women need and deserve and I want them to take equal responsibility. I'm grateful to be living in a progressive city where the men I know and meet are more than willing to take on the responsibility of protecting themselves and the women they choose to be with. That isn't everyone, but the men I know are feminists and they are still manly as all get out.

And by oral pleasure, I mean mutual. No one is getting a blowjob without giving me head. ;-)

i do take issue with your feelings on welfare. Not everyone on welfare is lazy or irresponsible and I have paid into it since I was 17 and I'm 38 now. I will take up the responsibility for paying for welfare for whoever needs it and you can take up the responsibility for whatever your taxes go for. BTW, welfare does not pay for abortions! And it doesn't make sense to me for you to argue both sides of the question. If a woman chooses to carry a baby to term and b/c of her situation does not have a responsible father involved and must care for her children, welfare is essential.

I don't have a problem with fathers getting together to fight for their rights to custody of their children. I think they should but I don't think they want to overall, your brother notwithstanding.

www.manicexpressions.net

www.bitchingandmoaning.org

gballsout's picture
Posted by gballsout on 28 September 2005 - 10:02pm
reply: I don't have the energy

I don't have the energy

Sorry bout that… though I don’t expect you to actually address everything. Given how the ladies usually respond to short ones, well, you end up having to do what you have to do.

I can't respond to everything. I do think you have feminists wrong.

Nor would I expect you to. However I DON’T have the feminists wrong. I DO know that a large majority of women don’t know the real feminist history. Much of that is left out in the courses. Things like originally being with the communist party, then when that kind of had its down days shifting over and creating feminism. A large portion came and adopted the techniques of the KKK and most effectively the NRA. Though its relevance to today is not as much as the MRAs would love to have it.

I have been in feminist meetings. Shall I list out the statements above (not by you!), that shows what I am talking about.

A whole bunch of feminists don’t even know what the hell the ideology is proposing and pushing for! They often are young, and too busy protesting or blogging and such to read the complex texts and such that were put out (and I am not referring to the real public puff pieces).

To use a modern example, the vagina monologues. Have you seen the MODIFIED version or have you read the original texts that were later changed? And the woman who was a big influence recently wrote a piece in that she was not an influence to the kind of horrible changes that occurred. This play is celebrated, and has recently been performed in lots and lots of places. The key example scene that I refer to the the lesbian pedophile scene. Here a older lesbian woman drugs a 12 year old girl with alcohol (later updated so that there would be less protest), and has sex with her. One of what feminists call the most heinious acts that men commit (and women too to men and such, but it don’t get air time), drug raping, is celebratory when a lesbian does it. the key line quote from the play that the 12 year old steps forward ans says “if it was rape, then it was a good rape�. So I guess when women do the same thing its even blessed by the victim.

Now this is celebrated by feminists and is/was(?) on broadway!!! So do I have the feminists wrong when this is one of their celebrated icons? Or that after all this freedom that they didn’t write great novels but spent their time navel gazing?

This is not to say that there aren’t good women out there or good feminists out there, and valid points, but for all the good we do what does it amount to when we let rads take control and go nuts? And that’s what they have done.

Its hard to respect people who fight for equality and then don’t stand up for male nurses (and not gay ones – which tend to be the only males they do stick up for, but that’s because they want to NORMALIZE something that is on the fringe. This isn’t to say that being a lesbian is not normal, but its not mainstream any more than polygamy or Satanism.

Then there is the attacking of medical information that stops women from being able to make honest judgments.

If you get all the facts, your judgment can be right; if you don’t get all the facts, it can’t be right. - Bernard M. Baruch

This is important, for no one is telling them that perimenopause starts at 27! And more stuff. The medical community hates that they have to slog through things, not to mention that good studies are being obfuscated by bs advocacy studies. A recent article came out saying that a study helped confirm that 34 is the perfect age for a woman to have a child (as if all women age at the same rate, and when 34 comes up, they go DING! And then what? A man pops out and sprays his sperm around, or she gets invitro?)

However the public, and probably even you may not be aware of what was missing or how to tell this was very very crappy science. First of all the researcher was hung in the article with no creds. Later the ones protesting the study author had creds and great creds within the field of study, AND they were women! later I read feminist blogs heralding it as great… however… looking up the person that did the study, it turns out that this person is a sociologist male feminist from texas a&m!! So what you have is a sociologist doing a study (that was advocacy), way out of their discipline and having feminists promote it because they want it to be true, while ignoring women within their field with Phds from Columbia University! Oh, and just like the rape data, and the salary data, and more, the information, data, and tables of the study were not available for reproducibility!!!

One last thing on not knowing feminists. If they were really fighting for equality of opportunity (we all have a chance to compete and the best wins, even if its all the women, OR even if its all the men if they can do better!), they wouldn’t be fighting for equality of outcome trying to balance the books as if we are all the same. But whats even worse is that even in that they aren’t fair. They only want equality of outcome of the best jobs. You don’t see them protesting for women to be garbage collectors, or crab fishermen, lumberjacks, miners, etc. and in the military, they get out by getting pregnant (add up how many of the women that were in the gulf scandals were pregnant, or that a SHIP lost half of its female crew for they got pregnant, left, had abortions, and kept their GI benefits). To this day not one woman has been able to finish the army obstacle course to which the men are required to pass or their out!

Mediagirl didn't mess with your posts, as you said. You have a right to your opinions and I honor that. I don't like to attack people personally, a debate is a debate is a debate.

I didn’t say she did. I said she resorted to ad hominem attacks. And I said that some of the ladys on the list are legion for deleting contentious threads like this one. nymom I think is one.. Look through the posts… you see their replies and wonder what the hell they are replying to. However, this is just PC speech!

Hey did you know there is a bill to make hate speech illegal coming up? Sounds good eh? Except that it only covers speech that derides gays, lesbians and women. so now when a man says “you fucking cunt� he can now serve a 10 year sentence, however, female hate speech toward men IS allowed. So it will be easy… call him every name in the book and when he responds, bango, jail time! however that’s not the reason… for it’s ALSO allows for civil penalties, and rather than jail time, you will see cases to get, shall I say it? OPM!!!

Think about this for just a moment though. You mentioned that girls used to become fertile at 12 and die at 25. (I do believe that multiple pregnancies carried to term had alot to do with that.)

There were two fertility points in all my posts, but I think your referring to the cave man area. The average life expectancy for ALL was 25. death from pregnancy is MUCH MUCH lower the younger you go. However, the major reasons that people died were as simple as colds, or a cavity that gets infected (a major form since they had never brushed their teeth for 25 years). There is archeological record and while child birth was a killer other things weighed more. Oh.. and fecundity can start as early as eight years old!

That is a mere 13 years of the possibility of pregnancy. Now they become fertile at 11/12 and it goes through to about 50 something. That's 30 years...a long time to continue to fight against the body's biological desire to become pregnant. 12 times a year times 30= 360!!! Even using the best forms of birth control available, that's a lot of fight.

I don’t want to get it wrong, but are you agreeing with the “birth wish� thing? the clock is ticking! And you are so wrong about the time that it goes through. Menopause starts as early as 30, which is why after about 34, you have many times the rate of downs syndrome and birth defects!!! Or don’t you know that? And if you don’t, then why? And there is a good number of women that enter and go through it and never know it, finding out that they cant conceive as young as 30!!! But each time better information comes out, the fembots (those that aren’t thinkers just knee jerk reactors) mobilize and have writing campaigns that kill any reporting of it. the newspapers are now pavlovian that they don’t want their own bad press and sales and so they choose to report something else or ignore it!

"The whole culture you are in and all that is around you is because of mens responsible actions. The computer your are on is a product of that. The democratic republic was a creation of men for ALL. a pretty responsible act."

That statement is incongruous to your entire post. You brought up several women in history who have been behind the male despots and the fact that women want war (which I don't agree with at all as they lose husbands and sons, whom they do love and war creates situations for women to be raped and die, which certainly isn't something one would wish for) and yet you divide the sexes into destroyers and producers.

By far the number of men that create “things� exceeds the number of men that destroy things. You can divide the population in half in many ways. The ruled and those that rule, male and female, old and young.

As far as your comment as to not liking war. Well, that’s sure off. for hillary said that women suffer more than the men that die in war (so I guess living as a woman is worse than dying as a man?).

You grew up AFTER the Vietnam era, you did not experience the women hating men that didn’t go to war!!

And here is a quote from “women on war� - Women have always had an important role in both anti- and pro-war activities, fueling the protests against the Vietnam War with the same passion that brought us “We Can Do It� support for World War II. With 15 percent of the current American military made up of women and an increasing number of women ascending to more powerful roles in the planning and implementation of war, it is clear that women’s attitudes toward war need to receive more exposure in the 21st century.

If women are so against war then why do they want to be soldiers in greater numbers and such? Why do they want generalships? Either they want war, or they want the OPM schooling and gi benefits, or both!!

Unfair "genderalization". Even if I were to agree with you, women produce more than men by sheer childbirth if not one thing more.

Not your best argument here. your argument is that the maker of a producer, produces more than the producer. She spends 9 months and less than ten years and schools train her “product�, and you claim that its MORE, than the 65 years of constant inventive output of that product?

And they haven't had historical access to the education needed to produce as much as men in other types of creation. That is why women get places in the education system over men, as you said. I don't believe that a *lesser* woman or minority of any type gets placed over a more *worthy* man, but that is your belief. Couldn't your brother have gone to another school?

That’s a feminist Herstory lie. All through history in almost all higher cultures women were celebrated for being refined. Refined meant educated. And in fact since women now get educated in advocacy they don’t produce anything much worth reading. Where are the Mary Shelly’s? Where are the Alcotts? Now that women are in school, they don’t write anything as good as the past!!! No female dickens, no female frosts, or thoreau’s. in fact women produced a hell of a lot more BEFORE feminism.

Here is a list from between 3000bc and 1000bc – oh, but you think they weren’t allowed to write and that men would have destroyed their works, or whatever (and I can list out lots from years before feminism as well.

Sulpicia daughter of Servius (1st century), Sappho (ca.612 B.C.-), Ono no Komachi (834), Baudonivia (fl. 600), Hypatia of Alexandria (ca.370-415 AD), Ban Zhao (ca.52-125)

How about later

• Heloise (ca.1101-1164), Ava, Frau (ca.1060-1127), Fujiwara no Nagako [aka Sanuki no Suke] (1079-aft.1119), Kojiju-ni (ca.1121-ca.1201), Ebner, Margarethe (ca.1291-1351), Shikishi Naishinno [aka Shokushi] (-1201), Birgitta av Vadstena [aka Saint Bridget of Sweden; Birgitta Birgerstotter] (1303-1373), Stagel, Elsbeth (ca.1300-ca.1366), Catherine of Bologna (1413-1463), Kempe, Margery (ca.1373-ca.1438 or 1439), Poitiers, Diane de (1499-1566), Aubespine, Madeleine de l'Dame de Villeroy (1546-1596) , Avalo, Costanza d' (fl. 16th C.) , Bacon, Ann Cooke (1528-1610) , Baffa, Francesca (fl. 16th C.) , Battiferra, Laura [aka Laura Battiferri Ammannati] (1523-) , Beaton, Mary (ca.1543-ca.1597) , Beaufort, Margaret (1443-1509) , Berenice G. (fl. 16th C.) , Bertana, Lucia (fl. 16th C.) , Bichi, Pia (fl. 16th C.) , Bijns, Anna (1493-1575) , Boudewijns, Katharina (ca. 1520-na 1603) , Bourgeois, Louise (1563-1636) , Brabant, Marie de (1530 or 1540-1600 or 1610) , Braccalli, Giulia (fl. 16th C.) , Braccalli, Selvaggia (fl. 16th C.) , Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Elizabeth von (1519-1558) , Brembata, Emilia (fl. 16th C.) , Brunozzi, Cornelia [aka Cornelia de Villani] (fl. 16th C.) , Canossa, Egeria (fl. 16th C.) , Capece, Isabella (fl. 16th C.) , Caraffa, Olimpia (fl. 16th C.)

My GOD, look at all those uneducated women. you have been lied to. Everyone focuses on the wealthy and the powerful. They were the ones that got educations because there was ZERO socialism. Wealthy families educated their women for no one wants to marry a idiot breeder sow. Only TODAY, after feminism, do you get that! Shakespeares taming of the shrew, the young man gets near Bianca by doing what? Being her teacher, but, I am sorry, she was forbidden to learn.. on and on I can show that that’s false.

A major reason that they didn’t was the same major reason that they didn’t here in the early US (as detailed in the feminine mystique, as far as attitude), why should they work that hard when they could be social, and work for charities, and have their days? there was a time when ladies didn’t have to do all that. No one said they couldn’t though!!!!

Here is the problem. the ladies think that the men wrote great things because it was easy. The truth is that great works come from trials, tribulations, from getting past all the people that say you cant. I watched my brother, and no one gave him any passes anywhere, though they did give me lots. He had to EARN it and PROVE it before he got up to the plate. In fact men are very cruel to men and that tempers them, it makes strong steel out of weak iron. Women are not tempered. They don’t rise from their personal trials and create great works, they rise up and whine and want the world to be easy. Thinking the men have it easy.

The truth is that we ALL have it easy now. We are all princesses with peas under our mattresses. All we do is wine that we cant do it till everyone moves out of our way. Well you haven’t heard a hundred years of whining from the men no matter what has been done to them. They have more trials than we do, and they don’t bitch about it, they get up, and do it.

My grandmother was a research chemist in the 30’s. wow you would say, but she would look down on todays women. she had a hard time of it, and yes because there were mostly men she could be like the feminists and blame the men, but she realized that the men were pissing on the men just as bad (don’t be fooled by the joviality, they aren’t tapping each other on the back they are twisting knives to get ahead while acting civil and we are fooled!) . often times they look down on us BECAUSE of how we don’t take it, and give back as good. We just go running off and make laws, talk to supervisors, go to court, get opm in recompense. Rather than actually doing something that makes then shut up, by transcending the trial. For that’s what they do.

Its king and queen of the hill, and men understand this. for to run to the courts or hr, is not to climb the hill and knock the top person off. whats funny is that the top CEO women say there is NO glass ceiling. MOST men are shitted on, and now that women are in the workplace, they found this out, though they think that the men don’t get this, they get it worse, and they are RESPECTED for making through it. compared them we get a free pass and have tons of choices, including doing what they want to do MOST, which is live a life of leisure of whatever sort they could.

I'd like less abortions. I believe everyone would like less abortions. I can't control your acquaintance who has had 7 any more than I can control GWB.

Ah, but we did have a method of control!!!!! We through it out, and made them icons of freedom! When a woman was called a slut, whore, cunt, bitch and stuff, that was how feminism said the patriarchy was controlling women (ignoring that these words really only hurt when another woman or our clicks of friends do this). Ostracization and such would stop it. however, it’s a freedom battle cry, and its painted that you are not only terminating a pregnancy, but you are also exercising your feminine power. how lovely.

I want to educate and I want to make available birth control (twenty forms? really? come on---name them all)

Ok.. I will… (and the male condom counts!!!)

Male Condom

Female Condom

Diaphragm with Spermicide

Lea's Shield

Cervical Cap with Spermicide

Sponge with Spermicide

Spermicide Alone

Oral Contraceptives--combined pill

Oral Contraceptives--progestin-only minipill

Oral Contraceptives--91-day regimen (Seasonale)

Patch (Ortho Evra)

Vaginal Contraceptive Ring (NuvaRing)

Post-Coital Contraceptives (Preven and Plan B)

Injection (Depo-Provera)

Injection (Lunelle)

Implant (Norplant)

IUD (Intrauterine Device)

Periodic Abstinence

Trans-abdonimal Surgical Sterilization--female (Falope Ring, Hulka Clip, Filshie Clip)

Sterilization Implant--female (Essure System)

Surgical Sterilization--male

[http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/babytabl.html is the source]

Men have sterilization, condom, abstinence, or trust the lady.

So yeah its real equal!!!

as well as the information it takes to use it. Feminists do not want to have a world of rampant abortions, they want a world where they have unrestricted *access* to legal and safe abortions.

Maybe the troops in the trenches like you do, but not the generals!!! You didn’t even know that list!!!! Its at the fda site for everyone. No secret. Why didn’t the leaders tell you? why don’t you know?

Oh, you DO know a false number for rapes, beatings, and stuff… and you do know the numbers of abortions here and there, and that the left don’t want them. And that men only want “breeders�.

BUT YOU DON’T KNOW THE LIST OF BIRTH CONTROL THAT WOULD MAKE MOST OF THIS A NON ISSUE!!

So I am sorry, you ARE being lied to and being played. The leaders want discord, they are following Gramsci’s plan! How bout reading about Gramsci, and all that other half of things that they borrow from and goal from and don’t tell you.

AND there is way to much controlling of information happening. think of it. if their numbers are right, and such, then you don’t have to discount the “lies� of the MRA’s. however, if their numbers are wrong, and SOME of the MRA’s are right (and other groups fighting this), then what WOULD be the tactic? You have to get them to shut up!!! You cant correct your numbers. you cant disprove theirs. All you can do is call them names, shame them, yell them out from speaking, kitchen sink them, suppress commentary, etc. NONE of these being methods of getting to at least a real number or such, but all ways of maintaining a false piece of propaganda.

If I make the assertion that the sky is blue, do I need to attack all people that say its something else to maintain that? Over time more and more resources are spent maintaining lies (advocacy studies, vs peer review, using dreams of conspiracies and paranoid concepts to discredit it), and ignoring female researchers who have done REAL work. Many of them feminists themselves! That because they became REAL researchers in their disciplines, they could not deny the results of the studies they started originally to prove the OPPOSITE point!

Hey, read about what happened do david Reimer! He killed himself. However, his early life, and the lies of a doctor are the TOTAL basis of the feminist concept of tabula rasa (the mind being a blank slate), except that that’s not true at all. we are very different an very the same. There is a book out on david, and the story WILL make you cry, and it SHOULD make you angry. Wendy McElroy has pieces on it. note that it was a woman who uses a wrong tool to do a circumcision (which is the most popular form of surgery done. While girls are swaddled in the US, boys first few minutes usually are some nurse or doctor (unless they are jewish), strapping them down, and cutting their genitals without anesthetic. And yet the feminsts ONLY fight for the halt of such similarly ghastly practices done on women in third world countries. Hey! How bout in your own back yard?), and burned his penis away. David was one of twins and the feminists latched on that it was the perfect case to PROVE that it was culture that does us and that we have no different preferences (the legacy of this is the 50/50 ceo work discrimination stuff!!!!! You can, if you care to, track it back to the stuff that stemmed from Reimers case). Just search on Reimer, Dr Money, and you can find lots. Though I suggest just sticking to the factual ones.

So that's the point I think you are missing. It's called a pro-choice stance not b/c it's more digestible, but b/c they (I) believe that it should only be the right of the individual to make the decision to go forth.

Actually it IS called that to make it more digestible. There are several feminist papers by the ladies that pushed abortion that lament that they didn’t come up with pro-life as a label for their movement!!! Look it up!

Men, unfortunately, cannot and should not be able to make that decision for women. Only the woman can. However, if men are reckless by not using condoms or not engaging in sexual relations in a committed relationship where the probability rises that a pregnancy would be wanted, then they have to only deal with the choice the woman makes. It's tough luck, but until the fetus can be transferred to the male for the term, it's the way it is.

Again, all the burden is on the man and the woman is blameless. You make no allowances for how people REALLY act. Women don’t like condoms either, women lie, women sometimes have alterior motives. In what your saying you basically say, too bad. I am saying that if she has the kid out of wed lock then its her problem, and if she cant cut it then allow the dad to adopt or give the child away (not burden everyone else). If this was the way it was, you wouldn’t see this, period. Each time we make it easier for women to get by we make responsibility less of an issue. you deny she has control. He has all the control because he didn’t use ONE form of birth control, or in your earlier post cant get her to blow him when he needs release (or she does too).

here's another thought to follow: if men are the great creators, how come 40 years have passed since the last great breakthrough in birth control happened and it happened to women only? where's the male pill?

That’s easy… though you wont like the answer for it smacks in the face of feminism. Its easier to stop the attachment of one egg, than it is to stop the production of millions of sperm EACH DAY. In guys its more complex AND simple in different ways. The numbers make it more complex, the simplicity makes less places you can foul up the game. they make em, they store em for about a week, and they only have to dump them. Hormones don’t control the process, and there isn’t much more to it. so how do you stop it? for ladies you have this orchestration of hormones to rebuild a clean womb (no pun intended), each month!! Screw up any part of this dance, and that’s it. IUDs use low level infection to make the environment harsh, and you have a couple of weeks to stop the one egg.

Also against what the feminists say, there isn’t any money for mens reproduction. Billions are spent on womens reproductive issues. even breast cancer gets more than 100 times the money of prostate cancer. We don’t care about our life partners, that’s the reason.

Fun Fact for the Day: did you know that there are three kinds of sperm. There are the fast suckers that run for the egg. The two others are killer sperm and blockade sperm… they exist to combat the sperm of other men that she may have in her (so much for women not cheating – they have don’t it so long that we have a small arms race going on!!!). the blockade sperm links up and make a wall… the killer sperm hunt down other sperm and kill it. fun stuff.

And I still think that you skirt any male responsibility.

Not at all… what I am saying is that they are both responsible. However, the feminists have her not responsible for anything. Whats her punishment for tricking him (18 years plus of money – and no accountability as to where it goes. Pick a better guy, and your reward is more. Hey isn’t that tennis guy now paying 5000 a month). Hey, and how come the amount isn’t a set amount and not a percentage (with a sliding scale for the bottom earners)? Look at the Marks case. Bridgette marks has no other source of income other than the child support she gets for the two daughters, whom she taught falsely that daddy raped them!!! She should get 200 a month, that’s it. if she knew that was all she could get then she sure as hell would not have played that card. She is also trying to stop the father from being in the girls lives even after she got the kids back!! so she gets to abuse her children (confirmed by court and hospitals where she took the girls so as to prove that he did something, when he wasn’t even in the state!), teach them that they were victims of parental rape, gets enough to live in a Madison ave building with a doorman, and has not had to do anything else to support herself or even contribute financially to the upbringing of her own children. Sorry, that’s not right, and your fighting to make it worse.

As for your brother's erections (TMI for a sister to know!!!!), I am truly sorry, but he just has to deal with it.

He did, he thought he was in a committed relationship, they both went to get birth control. But only he was culpable of the outcome. You know what. Perhaps women should just “deal with it� too. They would be respected more!!!

He should be protecting himself from AIDS anyway b/c he does have a poor history of a making good choices in relationships.

How so? tell me, how to tell when a woman is a schemer. I will make a book and we could make enough to have tons of kids. How?!!! I have another friend. He got married to a nice Chinese girl. However, after they got married she wanted to have a baby by her real lover in china, and told him. She only did it for access to the US and such. How was he to tell the difference between sincere kisses and her kisses?

The problem with feminists is that they put women on a pedestal where the women never do bad. It makes it convenient, very convenient. If women never lie is the propaganda, then its all his fault. If women never cheat, then men are the animals. If women don’t lie, then they don’t commit paternity fraud. For petes sake, people even stack up foster care kids for that money. You or I might not.

Not all women are like that and he needs to learn to stay away and alone if he has to.

Nope, but I already told you bout the wisperers. And you don’t realize how greedy your sisters are, or to

what lengths. Start doing research!!!

The fact is when there is no accountability there is no reason to not do something.

Here is a post from a pregnancy board… you let me know what you think the boyfriend should be doing… and note that when your married, and when you already have kids. What would you think if your husband started using condoms suddenly, and said he doesn’t trust you and is only protecting himself? So you still have a good relationship? And that’s the crux.

Ejoy this post!

Hi ladies I am new to this board...I am 23 years old with 3 kids...Lately, well actually for awhile I haven't stopped thinking about wanting to have another baby, people tell me I am crazy for wanting to have another one, but I just feel like there is something missing in my family and I can't help but want another child, and just the other day I saw a newborn at a hospital visiting my mil, it just made me want one even more seeing babies and pregnant women just makes it more and more hard not to think about it...I guess its because the only thing I got going for me right now is family, I had son at 19 and I don't want to have anymore children after 25...I know alot of you may be thinking that I am crazy for that because I hear alot of couples want to start at that age...I don't know am I crazy for having these feelings, my bf of 6years doesn't want anymore but I know he says that jokingly deep down I know he wants another boy, we have a boy and 2 girls all close in age, which is how I want them....I want to get pregnant that I am thinking of doing it without his knowing am I wrong?? I just want one last baby is that too much to ask any input on it would be nice I'd like to hear what you ladies think

http://bbs.babycenter.com/board/preconception/gett...

this one is a nice example. Two children from previous marriage. She is with a man for a year and wants more! She was honest to him, and he was honest to her! He tells here he is afraid of getting trapped, and wanted her to promise to have an abortion if she got pregnant since ALL THEY ARE USING IS RUBBERS, and she really wants another (she isn’t doubling up on birth control). And she is hurt, and DID make the promise (Which she doesn’t have to keep! And later says she would have trouble keeping. Then why mislead him with a promise? ). he asked if she wanted to leave him now that he doesn’t want a kid, and she loves him and says she would never get pregnant without his 100% agreement (then why isn’t she doubling up?). she feels that he deceived her because in the past he was “ambiguous�. I call that not really sure (maybe his mind changed or his chosen side became solid once he saw her with her own, or maybe how he was treated, etc. we will never know though). She had already had an abortion! And he is real confused too.

So two kids, one abortion, and wants more kids, despite her life partner not wanting them. Not doubling up, he is using condoms, she makes false promises to a man that is TRYING to be honest to her.

And of course you side that she is doing right! Later posts get nasty on the guy, one saying “If he is that dead-set against having children, and the condom is not enough security for him, then he should not be haivng sex�, and goes on about choice (which he is aware of and he wants to know her CHOICE before hand, to which she lied, so that he can act accordingly. Of course he is a scum for addressing this situation in any way!!! If you work it out you can see that no matter what he does he is screwed… AND you know how long relationships last when there is no sex at all forever (till menopause is done!)

So again. What your all proposing is a fantasy that wont work. And the fallout is dead babies, broken homes, suicidal men, screwed up kids. So keep pushing for it.

If abortion was only for certain conditions, then he wouldn’t have to ask, she wouldn’t be in a quandary, and more. However, because it’s a walk in sit down (though terribly unpleasant), everything is ambiguous in their relationship… so the very existence of abortion so easy to get has made their relationship shitty, mistrustful, with lies, talking behind his back, manipulations, and other women demonizing him when this woman needs some GOOD advice.

Way to go grrrls!!!!!!!!

I personally would NEVER enjoy coital sexual relations with a man who wasn't prepared to wear a condom every single time unless we were planning to become parents.

Great!! Now if we can get rid of all women and clone you the world would be wonderful. Infinite variety without accepting that variety is a major problem!

Even my brother you complain that its HIS responsibility to know her mind… and just above you can see that she doesn’t tell her mind (to him, but to strangers and friends, yes. Which is why you think he should know, for in your girlfriends, you know! But HE does not!)

I don't want to divide the sexes. I want men to become more aware of what women need and deserve and I want them to take equal responsibility. I'm grateful to be living in a progressive city where the men I know and meet are more than willing to take on the responsibility of protecting themselves and the women they choose to be with. That isn't everyone, but the men I know are feminists and they are still manly as all get out.

And I would want women to stop thinking that they deserve things. What does the man deserve? Who sticks up for them? Obviously not you. would you feel this way if my brother was your son. Would you be happy with two sons that say, mom, we cant trust them and we will be responsible, sorry you wont have any grandchildren, but thanks!

The problem with most feminists is that their ideas float. They aren’t connected. They don’t see the interplay, its just a bunch of points and conclusions that ignore the inconvienient, espouse the convenient, and demonize and make the men responsible for everything (which is what they were BEFORE feminism!)

And by oral pleasure, I mean mutual. No one is getting a blowjob without giving me head. ;-)

First of all, you don’t get “head� you get cunnilingus. Not to mention see how you are adopting male things to your own sex, and are desiring the male side, which is not possible since you are female and the burden is yours by birthright. With greater freedom comes GREATER responsibility!

i do take issue with your feelings on welfare. Not everyone on welfare is lazy or irresponsible and I have paid into it since I was 17 and I'm 38 now. I will take up the responsibility for paying for welfare for whoever needs it and you can take up the responsibility for whatever your taxes go for.

Really? Where did you grow up. We grew up in the south Bronx, my brother and me were loaned to people so they could claim more… when my brother was bankrupted and had nothing, not even work, he went to welfare. Its really only for ladies, and men with absolutely nothing. He had to lose his apartment before they would help pay for his apartment! We know the welfare system. How much have you gotten from it?

BTW, welfare does not pay for abortions!

Yes it does. I know more than 3 women including my brothers ex that got abortions while on welfare and it was paid for. Medicaid pays for abortions, people on welfare get Medicaid. So you are soooo wrong on this. its just not accounted for in the welfare dollars, its part of other programs, that they can participate and not pay IF THEY ARE ON WELFARE.

And it doesn't make sense to me for you to argue both sides of the question. If a woman chooses to carry a baby to term and b/c of her situation does not have a responsible father involved and must care for her children, welfare is essential.

Why? Single fathers don’t partake of welfare. And welfare breaks up families (I know). One of the requirements of welfare is that the father not be there (so it helps them leave and abandon, rather then help them up!!!). read the welfare laws yourself, not what feminsits say in their summaries!

I don't have a problem with fathers getting together to fight for their rights to custody of their children. I think they should but I don't think they want to overall, your brother notwithstanding.

And your last sentence is a grand example of why its not working. Feminists thinking for men, telling women what men want and what men think and what their goals are. and they always pick the desires, goals and ideas that paint them bad.

In order for a father to get custody he needs a lawyer, he has to pay for the doctors the court appoints (none of this is she burdend with), he needs to pay his own doctors, has to prove negatives (which is impossible, so its fixed). And after all this, she gets free lawyers, and can keep going back to reverse it, with little expense, and each time he has to pay for all that all over again. Which is why you only hear the wealthy really fighting.

My brother knew that if he lost he would be worse off.. and if he won, the child would have been worse off (heavy debt that CANT be forgiven and a dead beat mom who only needs to be supported by another man to claim zero income)

Oh.. and the back threat of getting new identity by hoping from womans shelter to womans shelter that will hide the kid for you, AND never ever has any methods to determine the mothers honesty, purpose, or mental faculties. In other words, no woman lies, and no woman uses the system.

So after you win, she wins. There is no way to get equal protection under the law for the man, when a woman is involved in the case and she doesn’t act fairly. Its all up to her, but the responsibility is all up to him.

And to your comment about not having sex….

That’s exactly what the men are doing as their only option, in every feminist country!

Oh… my brother wanted to adopt.. but they wont let single men adopt. And not single men over 40. don’t you know they are all pedophiles?

Better look at the number of women that are ending up with no one. it’s a LARGE number. The nydaily news ran a week long series that painted a rosy picture, but the numbers were not rosy at all. and the women in the articles kept talking about how they have no one.

I guess that’s better if that’s what you want for your sisters. I don’t.

your name here's picture
Posted by your name here (not verified) on 29 September 2005 - 9:57am
Alternate reality can be fun

...but we try to stick to the real world, you know? It's quite amusing how you claim to be reasonable while dishing out such outrageous accusations and ludicrous histories. You obviously have felt hurt by women. I'd apologize, but I'm not responsible. Neither is feminism. Neither are all the women who did not hurt you or yours.

You've had your fun, and I'm sure my advertisers appreciate the small bump in traffic from links on your sundry MRA sites. Now please take your pity party elsewhere. Write a novel. Sing a song. Save it for someone who gives a crap. I'm not reading your posts, so you can even go away feeling validated in your victim mind.

Really, just grow up a little.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 29 September 2005 - 10:20am
Media girl, you are

Media girl, you are simultaneously pathetic and cruel.

Another anonymous's picture
Posted by Another anonymous (not verified) on 30 September 2005 - 2:19pm
Thank you

You and your bravely anonymous compadres have truly set the standard to which I can only aspire.

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 30 September 2005 - 4:56pm
SAME HERE

The *pill* is the pill is the pill, no matter how it is taken and it carries real risks to a woman's health. So I don't consider all the variations individual methods. I know you can look up all the side effects and dangers. Otherwise...

I believe you have brother issues and feminism issues. You don't like woman, though you are one. Your rants aren't overly incoherent, tho they are far too long and I simply cannot read through your whole posts with as much as you have to say. My eyes glaze over and this is time I'll never get back, so I'm with mediagirl, let it go or come up with something else.

You could start your own blog/site with your arguments. That would be cool.

Then you can rant on, boogie woman. ;-)

www.manicexpressions.net

www.bitchingandmoaning.org

gballsout's picture
Posted by gballsout on 29 September 2005 - 3:12pm
How amusing...

Followed another link to this site, here twice in a day, never visited before. And look, su-prise, I find you saying "na-na-na na-na I caaant hear you!" here too, and tossing about insults rather than arguments:

> I'm not reading your posts, so you can even go away feeling

> validated in your victim mind.

> Really, just grow up a little.

Admittedly the man here is very long-winded, but hm, looks like some interesting points in there. Now if you would just pull your fingers out of your ears...

-AMan

AMan's picture
Posted by AMan (not verified) on 30 September 2005 - 2:48pm
The problem for you

...is that this is my site, and thus the burden is on you to contribute with courtesy and respect. Fail those and you deserve none in return.

Thanks for visiting!

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 30 September 2005 - 4:53pm
I have to agree with longwinded

As a woman I have a whole lot of choices. If hypothetically I layer two BC methods, the chances of me getting pregnant are slim to none (my husband actually was snipped, so I personally am homefree). I tpoo think that we have failed humanity in our inability to control ourselves. I think if any woman 100 years or more in the past could see how irresponsible we are, given the level of control we could have, she would slap us upside the head. Women 100 years ago and older had no real birth control methods. To see how we waste it now would be like an Ethiopian watching Americans throw food away.

We really have dropped the ball. 40 million deaths in large part because we cannot be bothered to take the time to be careful, that is really sad.

Pregnancy and childbirth is a woman's curse and her greatest gift. It really is our responsibility to control it, and our most wonderful expirience. It is part of being a woman. Having my two boys were the greatest expiriences I will ever have. They also were/are the greatest responsibility. I think that we get so wrapped up in me me me, that we forget that life isn't about us, it is about our families, and society as a whole.

I do not believe there is a snowballs chance in hell that any conservative will even make a real effort to repeal birth control. Very few conservatives want to go there. Abortion is another story. I do not think it is fair to say that just because someone is pro-life that they are against birth control. I do not believe that abortion should be seen as birth control, if anything it should be seen as an absolute last resort.The twently forms listed above are birth control, and those are not under attack from anyone with any power.

It is sad that no real dialog will happen here.

The Biscuit Queen's picture
Posted by The Biscuit Queen (not verified) on 30 September 2005 - 7:35pm
Back to those inconvenient facts

Your boys are your experience to have, and not the government's. So is your body. Attempting to start off every discussion with claims like "40 million deaths" is one reason why dialog never can take place. Life begins at birth. That is how we reckon everything, from age to personhood to when we can drink to how old we are when we actually do die. To believe otherwise is to believe in mythology. Pregnancy is a magical thing, but there is no baby born until it's born. Before that, you have a pregnant woman who morally and legally (so far) has the right to make decisions about her own body.

I do not believe there is a snowballs chance in hell that any conservative will even make a real effort to repeal birth control.

Maybe you're one of those folks who've decided not to believe in anything not told to you by a right-wing zealot. The fact is that conservatives already are taking away birth control -- in pharmacies, in schools. And conservative governors and the conservative Bush administration are blocking Plan B -- which is a contraceptive that prevents pregnancy (and is NOT the "abortion pill" RU-486) and could have a tremendous effect in reducing unwanted pregancies, and thus reduce abortions. Why is this blocked? Obviously not because of any interest in reducing abortions. So what's the real agenda here?

I do not think it is fair to say that just because someone is pro-life that they are against birth control.

Maybe you should tune in to what's happening, because the same conservative politicians who are out to criminalize abortion are also out to block access to contraception -- even for married couples.

I do not believe that abortion should be seen as birth control,

It's not -- except by right-wing propaganda.

It is sad that no real dialog will happen here.

Yes. Isn't it?

media girl's picture
Posted by media girl on 30 September 2005 - 11:29pm